Cartoon Low Point

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]Just Watched Sgt Savage For The First Time. Many Think That Dic Was The Low Point Of The Cartoons, Thats Not So. Imo Extreme Was The Low Point, But Now Im Not Sure Between Extreme And Sgt Savage. The Guy Says He Is Like Buck Rogers, The Guy Was Asleep When That Show Was On. AND HAWK TALKS ABOUT THE SCREAMING EAGLES, THEIR ALL SGT BUT THEY'VE BEEN COURT MARITALED MORE TIMES THEN HES HAD YEARS IN SLEEP. HOW THE HECK ARE THEY STILL SGT'S THEN? Come On Cant They Catch This Stuff. This Cartoon Shows Just Why Gi Joe Went Away For So Long. You Had The Stupid Ninja Force That Killed The Comics And The Toons That Dic Made. Well I Watched Them Every Morning, And They Would Have Been Good If They Had Kept The Old Joes And Not Have The Newer Joes That We Really Didnt Care About. Dic Was More Of A Way To Sell The New Toys. If I Had To Put The Toons In Order From Best To Worse Here Is How I Would Put Them. Just Wondering What Some Of You Think.

1)sunbow
2)dic
3)sigma Six
4)extreme
5)sgt Savage[/COLOR]

[ender098]

Hmmm, the cartoon WAS a low point for me. Everyone had SnowJob V1 Laser Rifles, no one got killed, Cobra Commander sounded like a sniveling Idiot, Destro sounded more like Issac Hayes than Sean Connery, snake eyes was delegated to third string nobody, bazooka was an oaf. Hard to think of these as two hard corps military/para-military organizations going against each other.

I watched the cartoon, but mainly out of Morbid curiosity. I liked the comic until the slaughter of all the joes in Trucial Albismia....it kinda lost touch with reality there.....and went downhill from there....especially with all the Eco/Def/ninja crap!

Sorry, just ,my $.02

[Sonneilon]

See, everyone has their preferences for how GI Joe was accepted back when. For you, the cartoon carried a lot of weight. For others, the comic carried weight. Then there were some really weird kids who thought the filecards were canon and the cartoon and comic detracted from it. I remember as a kid, wondering why characters that were used in the comic weren't portrayed right in the cartoon. And then, why some characters got a lot of love in the cartoon but not the comic. I didn't understand a lot back then.

So when I watch the cartoon now, it's pretty much a joke. Yes, it's a big ad for the toys and for it's time, the show was good. I demand a lot more now. lol. What I've found though is that it works best to pull a little bit from each medium. The cartoon filled in some holes that the comic never bothered with. And the comic did some wonderful things that the cartoon could never do. Take Shipwreck. Everyone sees Shipwreck's personality from the cartoon. The Marvel comic never really did much with him except make him a hard@$$ about painting the TTBP. It wasn't until America's Elite that DD made him the bad@$$ he supposedly was. But in a way, it was too late for a lot of fans who grew up with goofy Shipshape from the cartoon.

Certainly, Leatherneck, Wild Bill and Wetsuit got better personality treatment from the cartoon that helped shape our minds. On other hand, the comic gave us a lot of interpersonal relationships and insight between characters like Stalker, Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow. Even Jinx and Ripcord, y'know?

But for the record, yes, SUNBOW is my definitive cartoon. I enjoyed the S6 cartoon for what it was worth BUT I only saw the mini-series. DiC, that's when I threw in the towel. Mind you, the comic went downhill after the Cobra War for me so... GI Joe Extreme was a joke and well, The Screaming Eagles, missed that. I remember when Extreme was getting ready to be released to the public. It was supposed to be this huge gnarly, gritty, dark, more adult-oriented GI Joe... Without Cobra and without our favorite Joes. To think, I actually bought a few issues back then. Guh. And you thought the toys sucked now...

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=ender098] snake eyes was delegated to third string nobody[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]this is when i use to like snake eyes, i think him being third rate was a good thing. much better then the comic snakes [/COLOR]

[Lava Boss]

Never tried to watch Extreme.

Dic's voices and writing were fairly awful.

Sgt. Savage's one shot was kinda crappy, but at least tied into ARAH (Gen. Blitz helped create Cobra...figure that one out...)

Sigma Six had the animation (when characters were actually moving) but the plotting was repetative, the characterizations mostly flat, and stories glacial.

Sunbow was spotty, but they had better writers and better voice actors. I think the Movie left a bad taste that never went away. Also, people fail to understand that it was totally impossible for an American produced children's cartoon to show the level of violence the GI JOE comic book was allowed. In fact, it's surprising Hama was given as much leeway as he was, probably because the comic book was just a stop gap until Hasbro could legally make an animated show. And that parents didn't read their kids' comics, but did pay attention to what they watched.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Lava Boss]

people fail to understand that it was totally impossible for an American produced children's cartoon to show the level of violence the GI JOE comic book was allowed. [/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]
perfect point. if you own the dvd sets they speak of how they wanted to use bullets but were not allowed. it was after all, a cartoon. some talk about how no one gets killed, tell me one where anyone did back in those days. its realistic to see people die, yeah. but does anyone want their 7 y/o kids watching torture and murder?[/COLOR]

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=ender098]Hmmm, the cartoon WAS a low point for me. Everyone had SnowJob V1 Laser Rifles, no one got killed, Cobra Commander sounded like a sniveling Idiot, Destro sounded more like Issac Hayes than Sean Connery, snake eyes was delegated to third string nobody, bazooka was an oaf. Hard to think of these as two hard corps military/para-military organizations going against each other.

I watched the cartoon, but mainly out of Morbid curiosity. I liked the comic until the slaughter of all the joes in Trucial Albismia....it kinda lost touch with reality there.....and went downhill from there....especially with all the Eco/Def/ninja crap!

Sorry, just ,my $.02[/QUOTE]

Couldn't have said it better myself. ;)

[Lava Boss]

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]
perfect point. if you own the dvd sets they speak of how they wanted to use bullets but were not allowed. it was after all, a cartoon. some talk about how no one gets killed, tell me one where anyone did back in those days. its realistic to see people die, yeah. but does anyone want their 7 y/o kids watching torture and murder?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Funny, thing is. All those lasers (that never hit anyone) and parachutes, and parent/teacher groups still complained about the GI JOE cartoon's violence. Joes were still allowed to punch and kick bad guys, which is actually more than then the heroes on SUPER FRIENDS were allowed.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Lava Boss]Funny, thing is. All those lasers (that never hit anyone) and parachutes, and parent/teacher groups still complained about the GI JOE cartoon's violence. Joes were still allowed to punch and kick bad guys, which is actually more than then the heroes on SUPER FRIENDS were allowed.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]
ah the super friends. a cartoon i still watch everynight at 12 after family guy. loved this cartoon and many others like it. this makes me wonder if any who didnt like the joe cartoon liked any cartoon. i mean thundercats, bravestarr, he-man, M.A.S.K and so on. there was no killing on these. and look at other cartoons such as smurfs, the flintstones and sccoby doo. or is it just G.I. Joe that arent liked because more got into the comics before the cartoons came about?[/COLOR]

[Jay]

I don't mind the lack of violence in the cartoon quite as much as I mind how ludicrous the plots are. And a lot of the Joes were such douchebags, I hated em. Breaker, Shipwreck, Duke... No way any REAL armed forces would have them onboard.
The cartoon was a joke, plain and simple.

It's amazing that the original Transformers cartoon managed to hold up to time so well while the GIJoe toon is best left forgotten..

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]personally i like the transformers, like being the word. imo they were never within a 100 miles of G.I. Joe. i would pick the cartoons i mentioned before above transformers. smurfs, thundercats, m.a.s.k, c.o.p.s, and now family guy and the boondocks. if we were ever lucky enough to get a new joe toon, i wish we could get the artist of the boondocks to do them. [/COLOR]

[Swindle]

The cartoon was a joke, plain and simple.

Wow. You people are really harsh.

I love the toon. I think it holds up.

Great voice acting, great characterization. Duke wouldn't be on a real team? What? He did his job and did it well. Shipwreck was lazy and flirted with the chicks, but that's part of his charm. He was also heroic and had layers. Watch Memories of Mara. He's really heartbroken over losing her. Then in No Place Like Springfield, he runs back to that house, even that all logic must tell him Mara and the kid are fakes. He really wanted them to be real. Poor guy, a lonely sailor. Fun stories!

I'm reading the Joe comic, up to the 60s. One thing I hate is... ninjas, ninjas, ninjas. Hard MAster, Blind Master, Soft Master, This Master, That Master. Storm Shadow, Snake Eyes, Billy, Scarlett, Jinx, and so on.

I still laugh thinking about Snake Eyes fighting a shark or Storm Shadow surviving the shot by Baroness. Just nonsense.

Guys like Outback are back at base feeling guility while these damn ninjas take up vauluble page space. Cobras Terrordrome plot was lame. The Cobra in the comic wanted to take over the world. These guys are selling security to fictional countries in the comic. It just seems insubstantial.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Swindle].
I'm reading the Joe comic, up to the 60s. One thing I hate is... ninjas, ninjas, ninjas. Hard MAster, Blind Master, Soft Master, This Master, That Master. Storm Shadow, Snake Eyes, Billy, Scarlett, Jinx, and so on.

I still laugh thinking about Snake Eyes fighting a shark or Storm Shadow surviving the shot by Baroness. Just nonsense.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]yeah, thats when the comics died for me. it's not that i didnt like them from that point on, its that i loath them. talk about unrealistic and terrible plot!!! thats why i dont see why everyone wants a billy figure??? if they make one you know theyll make 100 of him, so i say i hope we never get one. i dont hate the new green power ranger, but i would be oh so happy if we never got another joe ninja, or never saw a ninja in the joe world except for storm shadow.[/COLOR]

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=Swindle]I'm reading the Joe comic, up to the 60s. One thing I hate is... ninjas, ninjas, ninjas. Hard MAster, Blind Master, Soft Master, This Master, That Master. Storm Shadow, Snake Eyes, Billy, Scarlett, Jinx, and so on.

I still laugh thinking about Snake Eyes fighting a shark or Storm Shadow surviving the shot by Baroness. Just nonsense. [/QUOTE]

The ninja thing ruined the comics. You really only need to read them up to the end of the Cobra Civil War, because after that they went downhill pretty quickly.

[Stormer]

[QUOTE=Swindle]Cobras Terrordrome plot was lame. The Cobra in the comic wanted to take over the world. These guys are selling security to fictional countries in the comic. It just seems insubstantial.[/QUOTE]
I thought the Terrordrome plot was very clever and liked how it played out over years of stories (the seeds are in issue 2!) -- Cobra goes to small, unassuming countries that nobody's really paying attention to, convinces them to buy a Terrordrome or six (or just sets up a "demonstration model"), then the 'drome sends out the low-frequency soundwaves that agitate the population, causing violence and unrest, so they can then provide MORE equipment and forces to "keep the peace." Cobra then has a legitimate power base in multiple locations around the world, with the respective national governments too preoccupied with civil instability to realise just how much power Cobra is getting...

Much better than "Swear loyalty to Cobra rule, otherwise I'll press a button and send all the world's farmlands to the Moon!"-type stuff, IMO.

[Red Sox]

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]this is when i use to like snake eyes, i think him being third rate was a good thing. much better then the comic snakes [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I'm with you on that one man.

The over ninja-fication of the comic is what really hurts the comic in my eyes.


The lowpoint of the cartoon Sunbow wise was the movie. Cobra-La, ousting Cobra Commander, Falcon as an ass-clown, etc. :rolleyes:

With that said, I loved the toon and comic because they both bring different things to the table, but they both gave us some great G.I. Joe stories and characterizations IMHO. :)

[Uncle Flint]

I think preference for comics verses cartoons has a lot to do with age. How old you were during the golden era of 1985. I was 8 years old in 1985. The cartoon was aimed at kids age 6 to 12 more or less and I fell right into that age group during the good years. I never saw any cartoons past the 1987 movie as a kid. They just weren't on where I lived.

When the comic began in 1982 I was 5. Not many 5 year olds buying comic books. the comic books obviously target a different age group. Probably 10-16 more or less. By the time I was 10 in 1987 the franchise had already started to tank. I'm guessing guys a few years older than me (Outrider, Ender) were probably beyond the target age group of the cartoon when is began. I've read the comic as an adult and enjoyed it, but I find the Snake Eyes/Ninja/Scarlett storylines so tiresome.

Guys who discover GI Joe past the 1985-1986 heyday of the cartoon probably came in a an older age and prefer the comics. What do you guys think? What age were you guys back in the golden years?

The funny think to me is that obviously both the cartoon and the comic were invented to sell toys. The age of kids buying toys I think is pretty similar to the target group of the cartoon. I don't remember any kids beyond 10 or 11 years old buying the toys. But the comic target age had to go well beyond that.

[Sonneilon]

I was 8 when I got my first Joes and the 1st oversized comic book. I enjoyed both but found by 1985/1986 that I was enjoying the comic more. The movie was ok. Didn't have any thoughts on Cobra LA other than, "That's nice". Now, when DiC came into effect, that's when I started losing interest. That would be about the same time the Cobra War was over and I was losing interest in the comic, wanting something more interesting.

I didn't mind anything that happened in the comic. I wasn't around to deal with the ninja action stuff. I think the last figure I had at that time was the Sky Patrol Airborne so I was pretty much out of Joe. Until 2002.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Uncle Flint]I think preference for comics verses cartoons has a lot to do with age. How old you were during the golden era of 1985. I was 8 years old in 1985. The cartoon was aimed at kids age 6 to 12 more or less and I fell right into that age group during the good years.
[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]i have to agree that this is what makes the difference between those who like the cartoon and those who prefer the comic. i like both, but i was to young to probably be able to read the comics so i went with the cartoon. it was first and foremost the influence in my joe verse. i can see how those who were like 14 wouldnt be as much into the cartoon, and they had probably already read the comic, so age would probably be the main factor.[/COLOR]

[Lava Boss]

The thing about goofballs and screw-ups on the Joe team in the cartoon...if everyone were a 100% competent, serious professional the show would be boring, the characters mostly flat. (And the show wasn't about the real armed forces anymore than C.O.P.S. was about actual law enforcement.)

Same with Cobra. People sometimes diss the Dreadnoks. They aren't Cobra's ideal, they are Zartan's entourage...Cobra wants Zartan's services, and he and the Dreads are a package deal. Even the cartoon writer's guide says if Cobra took over, the Dreadnoks would the type of people Cobra would line up against a wall and have shot. The comic made less sense that the Dreadnoks were kept around when Zartan abandoned Cobra, part of that was Zarana's pull...but her level of competence was spotty.

In the comics, once GI JOE knew the Terrordrome secret, that Cobra plot was foiled (or logically should've been). After that they seemed to push arm sales...Cobra Commander was just a more psychotic Destro. He came back from the dead and there was a sense, oh, now he's really gonna take on the world. But his brainwashing of Millville was just to have more factory workers to make weapons. Destro meanwhile had given up evil. Things just didn't work. Especially Firefly acting like a Cobra Commander wannabe.

The series really ended with the Snake-Eyes trilogy. Think about it. Original Cobra Commander was still "dead". Destro and the Baroness turned over a new leaf. Zartan had or was on the cusp of doing so. Cobra's most powerful players were out of the game. The next fifty or so issues were Cobra commander acting like a twit and Snake-Eyes just NOT killing him (even though it was clearly within his power a few times), Transformers, a castle that changes shape and hands every few issues.

[Urban Saboteur]

Alright,
On Ninja's..
I have to say I didn't mind the inclusion of one or two Ninja's in the joeverse,
I just think they were overly used. Do Ninja's exist in todays real world? Can we prove they don't exist to some extent?
I don't know, look at todays terrorist networks.. don't they use people secretly to steal intelligence or documents? We can't really answer this truthfully without ever having ties to a real organisation.. and I'm pretty certain none of us here would truthfully admit to it, what does this have to do with the inclusion of Ninja's in the joeverse?
Well I'm getting to that, Ninja's are used as Intelligence agents and assassins.. so the idea that both a counter terrorist group like GIJOE would use a trained Ninja isn't impossible, the idea that a Terrorist group would use one is definately passable.
I think most will agree the Ninja Force and the overly used storyline and ongoing personal battle between Snake Eyes & Storm Shadow really didn't do the whole G.I.JOE story or plot any favours. It was overly used, but in this hobby we have a choice of choosing our own involvement with them,. I find Ninja's cool. One of the many great setups I saw was on this site "Ninja Battle" Stormer was the one that set this up. It looked really well done. I think as long as the whole ninja thing doesn't engulf the whole story or team then it's fine.

Cartoons Movies and Comics, alot like hasbro's toyline have so many inconsistencies its become laughable to the point of crying. The cartoon was made to be fun to watch, and the movie (with cobra la) reflects this. The movie storyline wasn't fantastic, and it wasnt meant to be realistic. These programs are entertainment and meant to entertain, can a cartoon truely entertain a child who collects the toys if everyone is serious and flat character based?
If so how many from the population and viewership watching would tune in? :confused:
Alot of people judge how piss poor the cartoon and movies are, but maybe some not all are judging from their current age bracket (mid twenties). Those that clamour for realism don't have to seek it in their toys or collectables.. they only have to look at the worlds current struggle to get realism.
If you want guys getting shot and blown up watch Pearl Harbour.. theres plenty of shrapnel wounds and anti aircraft gunfire in that film and even its share of passion and heartbreak.. but you wont find it in G.I.JOE cartoons from the 80s no matter how many times you rewatch it.

The Inconsistencies with the movie, cartoon and comics to compare to the toys they represent are there to see. If the Cartoon was to be made exactly as the filecards depicted them i think alot of kids wouldn't of been so forthcoming in tuning in for the next bland, depressing episode.. it would be like a cartoon version of Eastenders (don't ask :o ) (think of Dallas but an English version but more depressing).
I never grew up watching many cartoons and never read many comics as a kid, I was more toy based and wanted GI JOE because they were cool military action figures, but i still done parodies and some clowning around, in my joe verse Crazy Legs was a complete Ass clown.. why? I don't know, to me he looked totally goofy in that dome shaped red helmet.. and so he was the clown.

In all teams, no matter how serious or functional they have to be, you always have a "Character" someone to cheer you up when theres doom and gloom and someone to pass the time when time seems to stand still. You have the team leader who organises and the grunt workers who get the job done and the specialists who you call on in times of needing something delicate or tactical done.

Where G.I.JOE succeeded with most was that Shipwreck had his lazy charismatic ways in the toon and was nothing like the filecard depiction (yes he strung some stories) but for the most part he was over exagerated for a reason, alot of the characters were, but it was done so that the cartoon was watchable.

[Swindle]

Voice him like Jack Nicholson, play him like Popeye.

Bloody brilliant.

I never saw Shipwreck as incompetent and I don't know where that comes from. He's a damn good Joe in combat situations. On base, he's lazy, true. But on the battlefield, he was pretty heroic.

Beachhead was emotional and short tempered in the toon. His filecard says he never loses it. Bah. I like him in the toon better.

Characters take on a life of their own. It goes beyond Hama, Hasbro, Sunbow, DIC, etc.

I know when I read the comic, I hear Chris Latta when I read Cobra Commander scenes. That's just the way it is.

[Mecha-Viper]

Alright my take on things though most of Exprience is from the Cartoon and a few Comics i've managed to get. the transforming castle is kind of a cool idea, i mean why would Destro the owner of a Hightech arms company -Not- have his family castle converted.......and i lost track of my rant sorry.