should hasbro bring back the o-ring???

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]just waht it says. what is your opinion? i saw this on hisstank and was surprised that 73 to 20 voted against bringing back the o-ring. from that poll hasbro is doing what is making the joe fans happy. im wondering what everyone here on joedios thinks.[/COLOR]

[Dersham]

I did vote yes. But I don't that it's because I'm afraid of change, I like change, so long as the change is like good. And though the 25th stuff is neat and there's some guys who have decent hand articulation, like Scarlett for example, moving at the waist makes sense. The O-ring made waist movent feel realistic (despite being able to turn 360 degrees), and I loved the JVC, VVV and DTC figures.

[Sonneilon]

I'm sorry. i'm voting o-ring. fact is, if Hasbro did swivle waists along with the pivot chest, i'd be cool. But hasbro can't think like Takara so...

[C-GDSM 2487]

i voted yes as i dont like the new style

bring back the o ring please

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]i actually had to go against the tide here and vote no. i love the o-ring and the times i had with them i will never forget. but the new 25th is a step in the right direction. i love the extra detail(compare the 25th twins to the ARAH), the extra movement in the knees and the new heads are leaps ahead of the old stuff with the o-ring. plus you wont have to replace anything 100 times in the years to come.

i do wish that they would go back to the screw so it would be easier to customize. i also like the fact that they are going through the line again. this is one reason a lot of people dont like the 25th. if your like me, you hadnt even saw many of these figures until the 25th.

if they could keep everything going in the same direction, but change the torso movement to that of the o-ring, i would be for it. but for me thats the only way, i like everything else.[/COLOR]

[Urban Saboteur]

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]
if they could keep everything going in the same direction, but change the torso movement to that of the o-ring, i would be for it. but for me thats the only way, i like everything else.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

:confused: You voted no against bringing back the o-ring.. yet here you state you'd want to see a better form of articulation in the waist.. :o

I wonder how much it costs hasbro to produce the new figures, you know.. now that the o-ring and screws aren't used for the build up.. I wonder what the productions costs run between the O-ring and the 25th Anniversary?

So now that I thought that out and threw it out there for people to mull and chew on. I'd say that Hasbro has almost got it.. so I don't think they should bring back the O-ring. You can actually have Articulated Figures without O-ring, and ones that move just as good as the 25ths and O-ring combined.

Just look at the movement you can do with a series 5-6 Marvel Legend from Toybiz back in the day, they can move. If they could bring in the extra articulation into the torso there and cut out the man flab/boobs we'd be rockin..
Course hasbro doing this is another thing.. they'll yammer on about extra articulation means the figures become loose over time.. when what they really mean is.. "Extra articulation.. oh good heavens.. that means the shareholders won't have that extra dollar, we can't do that" :D

NOTE TO HASBRO: Don't bring back the O-ring, you've made your bed..now lie in it you greedy, selfish demons!!! :p

[snakeeater]

I didn't vote yet. I like both styles of figures. They fixed the 25th so they can sit down now, a big improvement over the first wave, and O rings don't have to be replaced on these guys. I have an O Ring Python Trooper whose O ring broke, and on top of that, the screw in his back is stripped so I can't replace it, so he is permanently broken in half.

I haven't used the 25th figures in any pictures yet, so I don't know how they are to work with in that regard, but my old figures work just fine (except for the Viper Pit figures.)

[Urban Saboteur]

[QUOTE=snakeeater]
I haven't used the 25th figures in any pictures yet, so I don't know how they are to work with in that regard, but my old figures work just fine (except for the Viper Pit figures.)[/QUOTE]

and of course the ones that are snapped in half with stripped screws ;)

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]yeah, the rusty screws were always a problem, then again so is the glue with nowhere to get it apart. but i still pick the 25th over the old style. harder to change parts, but you really dont need to, no o-ring to break and change. [/COLOR]

[Sonneilon]

Microman, as fragile as they are, have better torso/waist movement.

Now that I think about it, I prefer the o-ring simply cuz the chest is one piece. If you look at Duke or half the other 25A figures, their shirts don't line up. It's kind of annoying. I don't think I ever had problems with the 1-piece chest (ie; w/o articulation) when it came to posing.

I don't mind the size variance. I love the sculpting and the ideas (for the most part) that Hasbro is doing. You take the Wild Weasel & Snow Job figures and check out their legs. It's the same base legs but they changed up the accessories. Very smart idea. So instead of having to sculpt new legs every time, they can add small changes.

Let me speak on this too. I know a lot of people are dissing the 25A cuz Hasbro went with the original outfits. I figures, it's the 25A, what do you expect? You don't go FORWARD with designs, that's what the off years are for. :p Seriously, anniversaries are usually a time for reflection. I don't mind they went 'backwards' with the outfit designs. We're seeing that the outfits from the original line still hold up today.

Snake Eyes blew me away. The v1. He's just awesome, regardless if you love or hate the character. It's a tight figure. I didn't think that old 1982 design would work. But it does!

Roadblock or Gung Ho on the other hand, not quite so.

I think dio-wise, it's nice to have the crew in their original outfits. They simply been updated. So instead of the crappy VvV Wild Weasel, we got a wonderful 25A Wild Weasel.

My biggest beef, other than the goofy articulation in the arms is that we're getting too many versions of a character. Yeah, I'm looking at YOU Mr. Winterized Snake Eyes and your brother from another mother, Toxic Snake Eyes!!!

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=snakeeater]I have an O Ring Python Trooper whose O ring broke, and on top of that, the screw in his back is stripped so I can't replace it, so he is permanently broken in half. [/QUOTE]
I will fix him for you, I have yet to find a figure I could not fix!

[Outrider]

Of course I voted to bring back the o-ring, not because I don't like change, but because the 25th articulation style was a backwards move, inferior to the o-ring articulation in every way. That's what Hasbro will have to do if they want anymore of my money! (Not that I'm dumb enough to think it will ever happen).

[vader9900]

O-Ring IS GI Joe. Without a o-ring these figures are nothing more than Star Wars knock-offs! The o-ring is what made GI Joe figures unique. I will go one step further, my figures not only need o-rings, they need metal rivets! You all are being duped into buying inferior toys. Let me ask you this: on the 50th anniversary of GI Joe who will still be around & sought after - 1982 or 1983 Cobra Commander or the 25th pea-headed, chicken legged Cobra Commander?
I hear people saying "I buy the 25th figures because I don't have any of the classic figures." Take the 25th Major Bludd, this pile of soft plastic is going for $7-$8 in stores & up to $15 online. You can buy a minty, complete 1983 Bludd for about $10 give or take.
Like I said o-rings are GI Joe!

[troopsofdoom]

I voted yes, but I'm really in the middle.

I don't think either reverting back to ARAH or continuing with the 25A is the optimal solution.

I'd like to see ARAH construction with the 25A ankles, wrists and accessories (belts and holstered pistols/knives).

[ender098]

Can you guess what I'm gonna say? The 25th is soooo nasty! Ok, they may have cool detailing, but I don't have a single one (and I only own about 30 total) that can stand up on their own. Their man-boob articulation sucks, their dainty hands can barely hold weapons and they can't sit down to save their lives!

Bring back the ARAH molds....hell, I'll take the Nu-Sculpt mold, but just Stop the madness! And don't try to improve them...everytime you do, it just gets worse!

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=vader9900] Let me ask you this: on the 50th anniversary of GI Joe who will still be around & sought after - 1982 or 1983 Cobra Commander or the 25th pea-headed, chicken legged Cobra Commander?
I hear people saying "I buy the 25th figures because I don't have any of the classic figures." Take the 25th Major Bludd, this pile of soft plastic is going for $7-$8 in stores & up to $15 online. You can buy a minty, complete 1983 Bludd for about $10 give or take.
Like I said o-rings are GI Joe![/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]
thats true, but i for one dont buy them for future sell. i told my g/f if she needs an operation then id sell them. otherwise i want to either be buried with them, of if i have a son hopefully he will love them. and i honestly dont think the V1 bludd, Destro or whoever look anywhere near as cool as the 25th. so if im buying something to look at of take pics of, i want the new detail. dont get me wrong, i have always loved joes.
[/COLOR]

[sgcaper]

I have to say everyone of my 25th figures can stand up on its own. Every single one (I have nearly 100). I also can get every single one to hold a weapon in a realistic fashion. 75% can aim (eye behind scope) w/o any alterations. The others need minor fixes.

I love the 25th stuff, I had and have nearly all the RAH Joes (my uncle worked for Hasbro back in the day and I was a toy "tester" so I got boatloads of stuff free). But I much prefer the 25th line. RAH has become less usable to me and are now my collectibles simply because I hate DEAD molds. I always hated a guy having a holster and pistol molded to his leg. I like real usable gear hence 25th all the way.

[vader9900]

I am not talking about resale, what I meant was you can purchase a real Joe for about the same price as the new pseudo Joes. There is nothing cool looking about the new Bludd, but look at this here (http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/showimage.php?i=13926&c=7) - now that is cool!

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]they are cool, and i love them in there simplicity. but im still happy with the 25th. i admit that they still have problems, but they have been improving these. still, i think the main reason for me is being able to get stuff that i couldnt get as a kid.[/COLOR]

[nando]

I voted YES , bring back the O RING please

[sgcaper]

[QUOTE=vader9900]I am not talking about resale, what I meant was you can purchase a real Joe for about the same price as the new pseudo Joes. There is nothing cool looking about the new Bludd, but look at this here (http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/showimage.php?i=13926&c=7) - now that is cool![/QUOTE]

Blood is nice. That pic is nice. But the 25th Blood (which I just picked up today is amazing!!! The missiles come off the pack for crying out loud) is superior. Like the original and like the fig in the pic I'll be fixing the arm for movement.

[silentdusty]

Honestly, I like the O-Ring, I have seven of the 25th, I used my Cobras in one set of my shots, they took forever to set up, they wouldn't stand, the weapons kept falling out of their hands etc. Don't even get me started on Shipwreck, one hand is useless,and he can't sit. Don't get me wrong, the new sculpts in some cases look nice,( other cases not so good, btw ever look at these things side on? The head articulation makes them look like the robots from I, Robot), but these figs are just ornaments for me, I find them useless for my pics.

[Flatline]

duh It's Obvious They Should!

[4-Cobra]

How do you Guy's think i Voted??If you need a Hint,just look at my Avatar... :D

[troopsofdoom]

Something that I would like to return more than anything is the Kung-fu Grip. Unique 25A hands that can only hold a specific item (Roadblock) or nothing at all (Cobra Commander) really annoys me.

[Flatline]

NO LIE :mad: HEY THE ONLY GOOD THING IS THAT IM A 25TH COBRA TROOPER AND A STAR OF THE TROOPSOFDOOMCOMIC "LEGENDARY" THANKS KRAIG. :D

[Rambo]

The o-ring is GI Joe.
Hasbro could do better only if they want.

Check the work of this customizer. It is pure o-ring. If a single man can do this, what about a big company like Hasbro could do.

http://www.joecustoms.com/userops/profile.php?uid=12
http://www.evilface.com/livevil.htm

[Sonneilon]

For the record, I don't feel going no o-ring is a backwards move. I'm not opposed to change, but I'm finding I like the bastard era stuff more and more. The shoulders are no biggy but I'm finding I like the old arm swivel better than what they are doing now. The ankle articulation, doesn't mean much to me. I'd rather see a thigh swivel tho so you can line up the leg better when they are standing.

Still, ARAH is the past for me. And when I see them used, it's just like, "guh..." Especially the HUGE difference in Lehsreh's "Country Boy" dio. Cross COuntry and his giant noggin, horrible face sculpt vs a better looking figure like cowboy Wild Bill. Or the 2 era of TeleVipers together??? EEK!

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]for me the biggest thing in the 25th are the double jointed knees. come on, everyone has to like that...[/COLOR]

[Sonneilon]

The double-jointed knees are nice. BUT my fave are the swivel wrists.

[Outrider]

The swivel wrists are great, but plenty of new sculpt o-ring figures had that as well, it's not unique to the 25th style of figures. The main reasons I dislike the 25th stuff are their fragility, their limited poseability, their mostly skinny and poorly proportioned bodies, and their larger scale. Plus I hate how Hasbro arrogantly expects that someone who already has all these characters as ARAH figures will buy them all again just because they have been "re-imagined". :( As a few others have said, the o-ring IS GI Joe.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Outrider] their limited poseability, their mostly skinny and poorly proportioned bodies, and their larger scale. Plus I hate how Hasbro arrogantly expects that someone who already has all these characters as ARAH figures will buy them all again just because they have been "re-imagined". :( As a few others have said, the o-ring IS GI Joe.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]i understand the latter part here. i really do feel for you guys, i mean there is nothing to hunt. me, as i said before i had not even saw many of these figures. its fun for me to hunt something i wanted 20+years ago. im even doing it with a few of the ARAH stuff. so while im happy with the 25th, i feel for those of you who had all of these already. thats why when i say i love the 25th and say i think there better, i hope no one takes it the wrong way and gets upset. im not trying to say, "your wrong about the 25th, there better and your dumb for wanting the old stuff". im just saying im cool with them, as i am with the old stuff.

the first part about limited possibility i dont agree with. its true that the waist movement of the old joes bent better then the chest of the 25th, the knees and ankles of the 25th allow for dozens of poses for me.
[/COLOR]

[Rambo]

Amen!!


[QUOTE=Outrider]The swivel wrists are great, but plenty of new sculpt o-ring figures had that as well, it's not unique to the 25th style of figures. The main reasons I dislike the 25th stuff are their fragility, their limited poseability, their mostly skinny and poorly proportioned bodies, and their larger scale. Plus I hate how Hasbro arrogantly expects that someone who already has all these characters as ARAH figures will buy them all again just because they have been "re-imagined". :( As a few others have said, the o-ring IS GI Joe.[/QUOTE]

[vader9900]

[QUOTE=Outrider]The main reasons I dislike the 25th stuff are their fragility, their limited poseability, their mostly skinny and poorly proportioned bodies, and their larger scale. [/QUOTE]
Not to mention most of them just look like crap!

[Sonneilon]

I was just saying that the swivel wrists being standard for the 25A (well, for the most part...), I like the best. I don't see why Vader thinks the figures are ugly. Looking at Speir's latest shot of the Fred and then compare it to an ARAH, the head sculpting are worlds apart.

I don't find my figures to be fragile. They seem as sturdy as the basard era figures. At least I don't have thumbs and o-rings breaking on me. :p

I don't mind the direction that Hasbro went for the 25th Anniversary.

The movie stuff, that's what I worry about.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Outrider]The swivel wrists are great, but plenty of new sculpt o-ring figures had that as well, it's not unique to the 25th style of figures.[/QUOTE]

Its not unique but its standard.

[QUOTE=Outrider] The main reasons I dislike the 25th stuff are their fragility[/QUOTE]

I really have no idea what you are on about here - They are more sturdy then the ARAH figures - no broken Crotches, no broken Thumbs - and so far very few limp joints

[QUOTE=Outrider]their limited poseability[/QUOTE]

They are more posable then the original figures ever was - if you can't pose these guys you are doing it wrong, plain and simple.

[QUOTE=Outrider]their mostly skinny and poorly proportioned bodies[/QUOTE]

They are better proportioned then the original run - actually they are pretty near perfect scale - some varying head sizes is all, but even the original run had more of it then the 25th.

[QUOTE=Outrider]and their larger scale. [/QUOTE]

I am guessing you are no fan of the 12" as well then?

[QUOTE=Outrider]Plus I hate how Hasbro arrogantly expects that someone who already has all these characters as ARAH figures will buy them all again just because they have been "re-imagined".[/QUOTE]

This I completely agree with you on - they should do both lines to appease the "veterans" as well as newcomers/collectors.

[QUOTE=Outrider]As a few others have said, the o-ring IS GI Joe.[/QUOTE]

You are totally forgetting about the 12" line. O-ring is not GI Joe, it might have been the GI joe you grew up with, but its not the be all end all of GI Joe.

Just FYI I'm not trying to come off as "mean" - I just wanted to respond the way a 25th collector sees things. You had good examples on why most dislike the line so I picked your post to answer to - no hard feelings man :) - we have different points of view - And in this hobby of ours that's bound to happen when they alter the product to such a degree, I respect your view as you have been collecting these for a good long while - but please respect the new collectors that re-live their childhood now with figures that they deem better then what they remember (well some of us do), and not bash the 25th line every chance you get, its getting kind of old. - I thought we had a "bash the 25th line" post somewhere, but every place I turn these days on joedios I constantly find grumblings about the line, even on comments on pictures! or reviews!
My way of doing things is simple - if you don't have anything constructive to write (constructive criticism) or positive, then don't write at all, it just sets a bad mood, and no-one benefits from it.

I will say it again as I have said this before - the 25th line got me back into collecting the joes from my childhood. If they had just re-launched the original figures I probably would have just stopped with Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow and left it there.
The 25th are in my point of view a step forward - not close to perfect - but neither was the original run of figures. They are however God-send to us photographers with their posability and true to scale 1:18 (which means we can steal a whole lot of other accessories from other places and use with them for the dios).

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
I don't find my figures to be fragile. They seem as sturdy as the basard era figures. At least I don't have thumbs and o-rings breaking on me. :p
[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]oh man, i forgot about that. thats the biggest reason im for the 25th. i broke a thumb and crotch just taking pics in the winter. wasnt even touching the guys, just picked them up and they broke from then cold.[/COLOR]

[vader9900]

Its good to see everyone still passionate about this hobby. Not everyone has the same taste in figures. I don't care for the 25th stuff, there is alot of o-ring stuff I dispise too. For financial reasons I have had to thin out my collection recently, what do I keep - my "vintage" figures. In the original line there is alot of crap too, and I have been vocal about those. I don't care for the relaunched figures of the late 90s, early 00s either. I think their skin is way to pale, I didn't need new kit-bashed characters or repaints of figures I already own. The new sculpt o-ring line (I think this is what G calls the bastard line) is not for me either. I know I am going out on a limb here buy I hate Cross Hair - he can't hold his weapons either. When I do get to buy a figure for myself it is pre-1990 - that is what I love, it is a actual "collectors item" NONE of the post 1994 stuff are, except maybe the exclusives and 97, 98 figures, which I do own a few of.
Passion is good, dialogue & defense of your taste in figures is fun. I would rather you be collecting 25th than not collecting at all, but I will still poke fun of them. As far as comments on pictures, I love them - good or bad!!! If you don't like a figure I post, take a crack, IT IS FUN! The whole reason I come to this site is for fun, to releave stress and go back to a better time!

[GoCards]

I am a fan of the 25th Anniversary, for whatever odd reasons I've got. I can understand why people would prefer the return of the o-rings. The Anniversary line has allowed me to get back into the hobby without totally going bankrupt; I can now build my coveted Cobra Army.
I really do like the o-ring Cobra Officer...if only because it's "me" in Troops of Doom. I got to kick Boba Fett in the nards!

[sgcaper]

[QUOTE=Outrider]Plus I hate how Hasbro arrogantly expects that someone who already has all these characters as ARAH figures will buy them all again just because they have been "re-imagined". :( As a few others have said, the o-ring IS GI Joe.[/QUOTE]

I really don't think that's what Hasbro was going for. I have a very strong feeling they were trying to get NEW buyers interested, you know Hasbro's real $$$ maker, kids. A kid who has never seen G.I. Joes will be way more impressed by new stuff then by the RAH stuff. Sure some board member's kid may LOVE RAH but I have a feeling that comes from mommy or daddy playing with them. Think of it like this, a mom or dad who used to play with Joes walks down the action figure aisle with its various figures and sees the 25th stuff, bam memories come back they pick one or two up for little Billy or Susie and Hasbro gets a NEW cash cow that will live for several more decades, as opposed to us aging folks. Or it could be a kid who gets bright eyed at seeing Destro or SE and again BAM!!!

Hasbro is doing the right thing. Collectors are a very very small segment of Hasbro's revenue. To survive they can not cater to us they MUST get new buyers who will shop with them for years to come. Sure you may say, "If it was RAH style I'd buy them all." Well guess what Hasbro sells out of stock faster than a crack dealer in South Harlem.

As far as proportions go, as an artist I have to say the 25th stuff is far more realistically scaled then anything in RAH. Come on Baroness is the same size as Destro who is the same size as Gung-Ho and on and on.

Having well over 100 of the 25th figs I have to say Hasbro has made a few slip ups but they learn quick and in my opinion are making a product that will sell in today's market.

Thumbs up to Hasbro.

[sgcaper]

[QUOTE=haradrel]I respect your view as you have been collecting these for a good long while - but please respect the new collectors that re-live their childhood now with figures that they deem better then what they remember (well some of us do), and not bash the 25th line every chance you get, its getting kind of old. - I thought we had a "bash the 25th line" post somewhere, but every place I turn these days on joedios I constantly find grumblings about the line, even on comments on pictures! or reviews!
My way of doing things is simple - if you don't have anything constructive to write (constructive criticism) or positive, then don't write at all, it just sets a bad mood, and no-one benefits from it.[/QUOTE]

And that says it all. I have been discouraged from posting many of my dio shots because 25th stuff gets blasted. It's one thing to crit a pick but to trash it cause you don't like the line is a real turn off.

And O-Ring is not G.I. Joe, 12" is. Sorry it came first and paved the way for the HUGE change that was the 3 3/4" stuff which paved the way for 25th.

I don't write this to offend anyone, I loved Joedios and want to love it again. As my gramma used to say, "If you've got nothing nice to say don't say anything."

[troopsofdoom]

[QUOTE=Flatline]NO LIE :mad: HEY THE ONLY GOOD THING IS THAT IM A 25TH COBRA TROOPER AND A STAR OF THE TROOPSOFDOOMCOMIC "LEGENDARY" THANKS KRAIG. :D [/QUOTE]


[QUOTE=GoCards]I really do like the o-ring Cobra Officer...if only because it's "me" in Troops of Doom. I got to kick Boba Fett in the nards![/QUOTE]
Would you guys have preferred the opposite figures? I could easily switch them if that's what you both want.

[GoCards]

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]Would you guys have preferred the opposite figures? I could easily switch them if that's what you both want.[/QUOTE]
No, I'm cool.

[Sonneilon]

Talking to the guys on the JBL, we didn't know what to call that 2002+ era Joes. The JvC concept was a relaunch, trying to push things forward. People tended to called 'new sculpts' (or for me to make it more stylish, "NU SKULPT"). But when the 25th hit, THOSE are NEW SCULPTS so what do we call that middle era? A bunch of them started calling them "The Bastard Era" or something very close to that. They aren't quite ARAH and they aren't 25A. It's like Brunch. "It's not quite breakfast, it's not quite lunch, but you get the best of both..." (or however that line in the Simpsons was, lol)

I don't know if I think of the o-ring as defining GI Joe. Part of me says, "It's just an articulation style..." But then, I think, "well, no other figure (that i can remember) was doing o-rings." Certainly NOT Star Wars and they have YET to do that! It still kills me that most of those SW figures are t or v crotch styles! It's not like a CloneTrooper can sit down, right? I don't see people complaining about that.

BUT... If we take the ultra-fragile Takara Microman figures... IF Takara did something different with their figures, I bet people would say that it doesn't have the standard articulation. MM have a very distinct build, y'know?

I always felt that what made GI Joe awesome was that it was:

1. It was a military toyline (which seems to have gone off on it's own tangent)

2. TONS of colorful characters. From shiny headed Destro to masked Cobra Commander to the mysterious Snake Eyes, the straight-edged Duke, the cooking Roadblock, the laser guy named Flash, the skin suited diver Torpedo, the tripping Tripwire, etc.

3. Vehicles were a gnarly part of GI Joe. It SHOULD still be. Not all troops run on the ground the whole time. We got such gnarly things like the HAVOC, WHALE, VAMP, HISS, and vehicles of ALL sizes.

4. Price value was great for a lil action figure that beat the crap out of Star Wars in terms of articulation. Articulation made GI Joe popular to me. Be it o-ring, elbow joints, knee joints, etc. That stuff is STILL not standard on a lot of toys!

5. Cartoon and comic to help us kids out. We got a visual action form in the cartoon and a more serious storyline with the comic. IF it was in the comic, I probably wanted it. If it was on the cartoon, well, it brought the toys to life.

Can't think of what else off the top of my head...

[Sonneilon]

Oh and Crosshair. I like the figure. Yes, he can't hold a rifle but I fiddled around with a lot of weapons for him and found a couple that work well. My beef is the head sculpt. He has a big head and a terrible hair style! Fred would be proud of that haircut!

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=haradrel]Its not unique but its standard.



I really have no idea what you are on about here - They are more sturdy then the ARAH figures - no broken Crotches, no broken Thumbs - and so far very few limp joints



They are more posable then the original figures ever was - if you can't pose these guys you are doing it wrong, plain and simple.



They are better proportioned then the original run - actually they are pretty near perfect scale - some varying head sizes is all, but even the original run had more of it then the 25th.



I am guessing you are no fan of the 12" as well then?



This I completely agree with you on - they should do both lines to appease the "veterans" as well as newcomers/collectors.



You are totally forgetting about the 12" line. O-ring is not GI Joe, it might have been the GI joe you grew up with, but its not the be all end all of GI Joe.

Just FYI I'm not trying to come off as "mean" - I just wanted to respond the way a 25th collector sees things. You had good examples on why most dislike the line so I picked your post to answer to - no hard feelings man :) - we have different points of view - And in this hobby of ours that's bound to happen when they alter the product to such a degree, I respect your view as you have been collecting these for a good long while - but please respect the new collectors that re-live their childhood now with figures that they deem better then what they remember (well some of us do), and not bash the 25th line every chance you get, its getting kind of old. - I thought we had a "bash the 25th line" post somewhere, but every place I turn these days on joedios I constantly find grumblings about the line, even on comments on pictures! or reviews!
My way of doing things is simple - if you don't have anything constructive to write (constructive criticism) or positive, then don't write at all, it just sets a bad mood, and no-one benefits from it.

I will say it again as I have said this before - the 25th line got me back into collecting the joes from my childhood. If they had just re-launched the original figures I probably would have just stopped with Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow and left it there.
The 25th are in my point of view a step forward - not close to perfect - but neither was the original run of figures. They are however God-send to us photographers with their posability and true to scale 1:18 (which means we can steal a whole lot of other accessories from other places and use with them for the dios).[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to get into an argument over this. You can pick apart my opinions all you want, but your counter points are only your opinions. It would be easy for me to reply on a point by point basis, but that will not get anyone anywhere because it will just go on forever. I have never disrespected anyone else's views , and that's why I'm entitled to my view that the 25th anniversary range is a steaming pile of cr@p. I'm glad you enjoy them, but I'll never spend one more cent on the junk. Thank you and good night.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Outrider]I'm not going to get into an argument over this. You can pick apart my opinions all you want, but your counter points are only your opinions. It would be easy for me to reply on a point by point basis, but that will not get anyone anywhere because it will just go on forever. I have never disrespected anyone else's views , and that's why I'm entitled to my view that the 25th anniversary range is a steaming pile of cr@p. I'm glad you enjoy them, but I'll never spend one more cent on the junk. Thank you and good night.[/QUOTE]

Not trying to argue - but you are wrong that all of those points where opinions.
They have more posability then original figures mainly because of more movable parts.
They are more true to real scale 1:18 even with the varying headsizes.
The rest is probably opinions and you are right about that.

You are of course totally intitled to your opinion, and I know where you are comming from so I respect that you dislike the 25th a lot. All I wanted to point out - and not just to you is that it gets tiresome to hear 25th bashing just about everytime something is posted - as someone else said they come here to enjoy their hobby, I don't enjoy having to filter out opinions with no constructive critsicm from most of the post- What I'm saying is really, just think about what you are posting before pressing that 'submit reply' button (and this isn't to you personally but to everyone that lets off steam on their favourite pet peve).

I really do see the point that people who collect the originals got screwed over, and that most people are really annoyed by this (I would be to if I had been collecting that long!). Vent all you want, but please keep it in one place such as the 'bash the 25th line' post, it keeps things more tidy and makes for a better atmosphere for us that utilize the 25th :) - Again this wasn't you personally, you just happen to have a lot of the things people hate about the 25th in your post ;)

Note to everyone else reading this : Outrider has posted comments on my pictures containing the 25th and its been just positive comments! So take it with a grain of salt that I picked his reply as an example - it was really meant as in general. Aight back to work! (yeah I'm at work...)

[Gatilho]

[QUOTE=C-GDSM 2487]i voted yes as i dont like the new style

bring back the o ring please[/QUOTE]

I can't write nothing better to express what I feel .....

[Urban Saboteur]

Alright.
It's been mentioned that we could go on and on, as long as we don't flame each other we are cool though :o
Ok, just to point a few things out,
Haradrel commented:
"They have more posability then original figures mainly because of more movable parts.
They are more true to real scale 1:18 even with the varying headsizes.
The rest is probably opinions and you are right about that."

Now, as far as the 25th Anniversary is concerned, yes they have more articulation, but just because they have more moveable parts it doesn't necessarily make them better or necessarily more articulated.
That probably doesn't make alot of sense to you reading it, so I'm going to do my level best at explaining.
before I do this, please see my review on the 25th Storm Shadow. I don't hate the 25th, I just don't like all the decisions hasbro has made.
http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/showimage.php?i=13559&c=9
Back to my explanation on the moveable parts issue, we'll take a simple 1985 RAH Flint. His torso piece is one piece and not moveable (I.e has no articulation as such on the plastic).
Now look at a 25th Figure. It has articulation midway up the torso, however I should point out the following.
1. Cosmetically i don't think it looks right at all, most of the figures that don't have covering armor look like the bodies need pushing up into the ribcage.
2. Does it really benefit you that much when taking pictures, lots of people have coped fine with the Oring style torso and it still offers lots of detail without the man boobs problem.

Here is an example where by putting in a change hasn't really had a great effect. You could counter balance this argument with what has been mentioned about the double jointed knees couldnt you :D
The double jointed knees were a great addition to GIJOE figures.

As for the size issue, this will always be a great debate amongst fans, some want the figures to be all together in scale, as in the RAH mold.. where as other fans want 25th style designs because they appear to be more realistic in design to the body sculpt, for example Destro & Gung-Ho should be taller than Baroness and Scarlett.
This particular argument, i dont think there is truely a right and wrong, because it comes down to preference on the fan, hasbro would have to release two different styles of series per wave.. and i don't think hasbro would do it.

Now back to my point about changes made to 25th figures.. whereby they have included these changes with more articulation and movement in mind,
two points spring to mind from my review here..
The solid nub ontop of the torso (for example no balljoint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard..
secondly is the sitting down problem.. sure they have double jointed knees.. but theres too much plastic action going on with the torso.. so they have trouble sitting.

Now.. list those back.. we have the problem with the torso ..
the problem with the waist/legs movement and the fact they can't sit.. and the head/balljoint neck issue.
Those are my 3 honest constructive criticisms of hasbro's changes, based on my review of the 25th.. 3 changes that haven't really helped the line at all.. not in any way shape or form..
having said that i've mentioned points in my review that also favour the 25th, lets all be honest.. if hasbro went back to the Oring style construction.. and released all the 25th anniversary figures into RAH sculpt.. would their be any takers..
and if so, how would this reflect on hasbro's business strategy for the future..
"everytime we make a change to the line, it has to be approved by fans.. " Yes.. well no I don't believe it does..
No one single toy line stays still.. if it does.. it perishes.. and dies an old slow death.. Toys have to change it's part of evolving and life.. hasbro aren't forcing you to buy the 25th range of toys.. so if you don't like them, don't buy them.

One final point on the "Oring is gijoe statement" I think it's true in the sense that they grew up with those style of gi Joes.. and that's as far as it goes.. it doesn't matter if you choose to ignore the 25th anniversary, cobra la, sigma 6 and even the feared extreme line or eco warriors.. it's all a brand of GIJOE.. weather or not you choose to admit it.. when we're all dead and gone it will be written in hasbro history archives they had these toys..
Much in the same way the 25th are now a part of GIJOE... deal with it don't deal with it.. your choice .. but saying Oring is gijoe is like an 12" gijoe fan saying 3 3/4 figures aren't gi joe.. all of it is GIJOE.. just because you don't see something .. it doesn't mean to say it doesn't exist.

Props to everyone so far for their cultured and knowledgable debate.. Good Stuff :D

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=haradrel]Not trying to argue - but you are wrong that all of those points where opinions.

I don't enjoy having to filter out opinions with no constructive critsicm from most of the post- What I'm saying is really, just think about what you are posting before pressing that 'submit reply' button (and this isn't to you personally but to everyone that lets off steam on their favourite pet peve).[/QUOTE]

So, your opinions are fact, and mine are just opinions....well go figure! Guess I must have been mistaken all along. No constructive critcism? I would have thought pointing out their faults is just that. "25th sux" is what I call non constructive critcism. And didn't I read somewhere in your first post a line about not disrespecting other people's views?

[Urban Saboteur]

You should probably both accept you have differing views on it and move on.. :)

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Outrider]So, your opinions are fact, and mine are just opinions....well go figure! Guess I must have been mistaken all along. No constructive criticism? I would have thought pointing out their faults is just that. "25th sux" is what I call non constructive criticism. And didn't I read somewhere in your first post a line about not disrespecting other people's views?[/QUOTE]

No - I pointed out which were facts and which were opinions quite clearly. - The scale and poseability.
The rest are up for debate - I strongly feel that the 25th are more rigid and prone to not breaking as the original line was with crotches and thumbs (for example).

I do see your point - but it actually is a fact that they are a closer scale - I can speak from 3 years of experience at art school for that one.
And I still think they offer a lot more poseability then the originals - but as Urban Saboteur pointed out this might be up for debate - Though I'll address that issue later and show why more points of articulation gives better poseability.

My point was not that your criticisms here was non-constructive - quite the opposite - but that in general we get a lot of bashing for the 25th line even in places where it shouldn't be.

I never disrespected your views, in fact I agreed with most of them and even said that I respected your point of view because you came from a background of collecting joes over time. Respect mine please.

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]You should probably both accept you have differing views on it and move on.. [/QUOTE]
Its still civil ;) I will however agree to disagree if something gets to heated and leave it at that - right now we seem to be having a difference in taste is all.

[Urban Saboteur]

Oh and to clarify.. i posted to try and humble the convo.. i wasn't attempting to throw my weight around.. truth is i dont think i could take another man/joe drama :o :)

[Sonneilon]

Good call, Rich. I'm not in the mood for another drama/fight to break out.

I think it gets old when people are constantly bashing the 25th. You don't see me bashing the ARAH or the folks who want ARAH back. Cuz I DON'T want to see those molds again. This is, of course, a guy who keeps ARAH in his memories and the Bastard Era were the bomb. The 25A, it's funny, I really can't recommend the line to friends. I cite that there are a few good figures and I don't know if there are more misses than hits (or vice versa).

I do know that Craig bought the 1st 2 5-packs and therein lies most of his opinions. This is how I see it (hope Craig doesn't mind)

Generalities.
-The figures can't look up or down very well (bastard era had that problem too).

-Some figures have special sculpted hands which means different weapons don't work in them (ARAH had this too at times).

-The redux of outfits (Even tho this might be following the SW/TF idealogy)

-size variance. Doesn't fit in with the other eras (yet, maybe they aren't supposed to be mixed. :p )

-Lack of ability to sit down (tho it's been fixed for the most part)

Specifics.

-Duke's arms can't bend worth crap (unless you cut the bicep).

-Roadblock has skinny legs, lack of arm articulation and a goofy left hand.

-Gung Ho has lack of arm articulation and looks kinda like someone else.

-Scarlet, I'm not sure.

-Snake Eyes, not sure how Craig can complain.

-Cobra Commander has a closed fist?

-Destro's a tad thin?

-Cobra Trooper, not sure how Craig can complain.

-Baroness... We won't even go there.

-Storm Shadow, not sure what the problem is.



I don't remember if Craig got any of the singles. But as some have said, the figures that first came out and those coming out now (uh, give or take the Viper) are pretty awesome. It's still hit and miss as far as I can tell and the variants of figures are pretty annoying.

BUT at least there is NOW a huge separation 'tween ARAH and 25A, right? You won't get 'em mixed up!!! It was stated by TRU that they hate collectors. There was a thread on the JBL about that one...

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]that is the big problem with people who hate the 25th. at first i was disappointed, thats with the 2 5 packs. then the single packs started coming out and got better, better and better.

honestly, the reason was that hasbro didnt think they were going to sell as well as they did and only made the first wave for collectors, no one else. then they saw how they were selling and how people wanted them and were told the problems they had. now there making them for everyone to use however you want, not just as collectibles.

thats why i said everyone should give one of the last 2 snake eyes a chance and see if their minds dont change some. this isnt to say you will want to buy them because obviously some just dont want anything but old school stuff. [/COLOR]

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]Oh and to clarify.. i posted to try and humble the convo.. i wasn't attempting to throw my weight around.. truth is i dont think i could take another man/joe drama :o :)[/QUOTE]

Didn't think you were ;) We all need to "cool our heads" when it becomes to heated - And with something we love and pour our hearts (and money) into its bound to be touchy on a few things. I'll promise from my side that there will be no drama, just debate ;)

I'll post pictures later with an explanation on articulation to prove that the 25th have better poseability. For now I have a dog to walk (I'm dog watching this weekend for a friend) so I can't post to much or to long (the dog has ADHD and is hyper-active)

[Outrider]

Look, it hasn't been anything but civil; a little warm perhaps, but I for one would not let things spiral into personal insults or childish garbage like that. We disagree, and that's it. I respect people's opinions that differ from mine even though I will never agree with them, and expect only the same in return. I can be a stubborn, hard headed old b@stard, but you won't hear "your opinion sux" or the like from me.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Outrider]Look, it hasn't been anything but civil; a little warm perhaps, but I for one would not let things spiral into personal insults or childish garbage like that. We disagree, and that's it. I respect people's opinions that differ from mine even though I will never agree with them, and expect only the same in return. I can be a stubborn, hard headed old b@stard, but you won't hear "your opinion sux" or the like from me.[/QUOTE]

We are very much alike then ;)
Well after having a dog with ADHD which is hyper too all day as well as airsofting for 4 hours I'm pretty tired right about now :eek:
I'll throw up some pictures and an explanation on why more points of articulation will lead to better posability (as well as show the new 25th's can look up just as well as the old ones can). Hope everyone is enjoying their weekend!

And o-ring or not, this is still a great hobby ;) (I just got my Marauder order today :D)

[Stormer]

I voted to bring back the o-ring -- must say I don't really appreciate the blatant bias in the wording of the poll questions, basically saying that 25th has been forward progress and anyone who doesn't like it is closed-minded. I've never seen ANYONE say they don't like 25th just because it's different, they usually back up their opinion with quite specific reasons.

And I now feel more qualified in my own opinion, because...

I NOW OWN SOME 25TH FIGURES!!!

They feel all spindly; a lot of their articulation (arms especially) doesn't move smoothly, they want to be locked in a few particular positions; they hold their weapons like they're scared of them; Fred/CG's lower leg & knee popped out of his thigh the first time I tried to bend them. And, they all look like they need their upper torso pushed about half an inch further down onto their lower section.

I'll get BATs, maybe characters who've never had a figure before since I'm not going to get them any other way, but I'm not encouraged to replace any of my existing collection, or even get 25th versions of figures I DON'T have already.

Vehicles, though -- really wish I could find those...!

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
Ok, just to point a few things out,
Haradrel commented:
"They have more posability then original figures mainly because of more movable parts.They are more true to real scale 1:18 even with the varying head sizes.
The rest is probably opinions and you are right about that."

Now, as far as the 25th Anniversary is concerned, yes they have more articulation, but just because they have more movable parts it doesn't
necessarily make them better or necessarily more articulated.
[/QUOTE]
You didn't disagree with me here, only that you thought it didn't make them better.
Here's a few example of more natural poses because of the extra articulation.
(storm shadow and jinx better posing) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/01stormshadowandjinxbetterposing.jpg) (flint natural shooting pose) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/02flintnaturalshootingpose.jpg) (storm shadow and jinx better posing 2) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/03stormshadowandjinxbetterposing2.jpg)

(Flint aiming) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/04flintaiming.jpg)
the 25th flint gets his gun in his shoulder and can aim through the sight and holds his gun in a natural way
(other flint aiming) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/05flintaming2.jpg)
The same goes for this one, only his other hand is at an awkward angle (no wrist movement)

(dialtone not aiming) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/06-notaimingdialtone.jpg)
Dialtone can't look through his sights, and does not hold a very natural pose.

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
Now look at a 25th Figure. It has articulation midway up the torso, however I should point out the following.
1. Cosmetically i don't think it looks right at all, most of the figures that don't have covering armor look like the bodies need pushing up

into the ribcage.
[/QUOTE]

I won't disagree completely with you here, just say that the original line has the same problem only lower down - view example here:
(looking up belly) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/07-lookingupbelly.jpg)

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
2. Does it really benefit you that much when taking pictures, lots of people have coped fine with the Oring style torso and it still offers

lots of detail without the man boobs problem.
[/QUOTE]

I personally don't find the man boobs to be such a huge problem, but I guess this is a taste thing, point of fact is that the 25th are more

true anatomically then their earlier brethren even with the man boobs. (but it is a heroic line, so take that with some grain of salt.)

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
Here is an example where by putting in a change hasn't really had a great effect.
[/QUOTE]

True, but I'm chalking this one up to taste differences - I really don't like how the o-ring torso suddenly just ends and you see the

opening and o-ring when leaning the figures back.

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
You could counter balance this argument with what has been mentioned about the double jointed knees couldn't you :D
The double jointed knees were a great addition to GIJOE figures.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed :)


[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
As for the size issue, this will always be a great debate amongst fans, some want the figures to be all together in scale, as in the RAH

mold.. where as other fans want 25th style designs because they appear to be more realistic in design to the body sculpt, for example Destro

& Gung-Ho should be taller than Baroness and Scarlett.
This particular argument, i don't think there is truly a right and wrong, because it comes down to preference on the fan, hasbro would have

to release two different styles of series per wave.. and i don't think hasbro would do it.
[/QUOTE]

Agreed :) Taste issue again - or personal preference by any other name

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
The solid nub on top of the torso (for example no ball joint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I

reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard..
[/QUOTE]

Here I have to say that you are wrong, and I'll prove it with pictures. He has actually the same range of movement as the older figures.
see here:
(Stormy looking up) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/08-Stormylookingup.jpg)
in the picture jinx actually can't look up at all!

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
secondly is the sitting down problem.. sure they have double jointed knees.. but theres too much plastic action going on with the torso.. so

they have trouble sitting.
[/QUOTE]

Trouble? I've never had any trouble with them, they have longer legs so not all accessories fit them is all. See even the "diaper" 25th can

sit down (flint is one of these)

(Sitting Down) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/09sittingdown.jpg)

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
Now.. list those back.. we have the problem with the torso ..
the problem with the waist/legs movement and the fact they can't sit.. and the head/ball joint neck issue.
Those are my 3 honest constructive criticisms of hasbro's changes, based on my review of the 25th.. 3 changes that haven't really helped the

line at all.. not in any way shape or form..
[/QUOTE]

I think I've proven that some of those issues were not completely accurate, whilst the rest was a taste/personal preference thing.

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
having said that I've mentioned points in my review that also favor the 25th, lets all be honest.. if hasbro went back to the Oring style

construction.. and released all the 25th anniversary figures into RAH sculpt.. would their be any takers..
and if so, how would this reflect on hasbro's business strategy for the future..
"every time we make a change to the line, it has to be approved by fans.. " Yes.. well no I don't believe it does..
No one single toy line stays still.. if it does.. it perishes.. and dies an old slow death.. Toys have to change it's part of evolving and

life.. hasbro aren't forcing you to buy the 25th range of toys.. so if you don't like them, don't buy them.

One final point on the "Oring is gijoe statement" I think it's true in the sense that they grew up with those style of gi Joes.. and that's

as far as it goes.. it doesn't matter if you choose to ignore the 25th anniversary, cobra la, sigma 6 and even the feared extreme line or

eco warriors.. it's all a brand of GIJOE.. weather or not you choose to admit it.. when we're all dead and gone it will be written in hasbro

history archives they had these toys..
Much in the same way the 25th are now a part of GIJOE... deal with it don't deal with it.. your choice .. but saying Oring is gijoe is like

an 12" gijoe fan saying 3 3/4 figures aren't gi joe.. all of it is GIJOE.. just because you don't see something .. it doesn't mean to say it

doesn't exist.
[/QUOTE]


Agreed on all points :)


[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
Props to everyone so far for their cultured and knowledgeable debate.. Good Stuff :D[/QUOTE]

Indeed :) And again don't take this reply personally, you just pointed out a few things that I think most nay sayers to the 25th line have
a problem with.



All in all I think some of the "old school" collectors need to convince themselves not to buy the 25th because of the economic impact on

their wallet - so they try to build up under the theory that the 25th are an inferior product to the original line.
I'm saying maybe, MAYBE as toys, but for collectors the 25th should be the best thing since sliced bread - this is just my personal opinion

and all the taste/preference things come to mind.

it all boils down to taste/personal preference if you ask me.
The older lines had problems with thumb and crotch breaking as well as a few loose limbs from time to time.
So far my 25th have experienced very few loose limbs (only 3 or 4 out of probably 50-60 figures - and not those that I use the most) and no

breakages - But this might be my handling of them as an adult so I won't say that for sure (anybody with kids who plays with 25th can chime in with a view point on this).
I also really don't like the scale of the original line as opposed to the new 25th - but I prefer things to come off as natural as possible, so that really is a personal taste/preference thing. Again after having done art for 3 years at school you get kind of 4n4l about such things

(yes I just leeted to avoid a bad word :p)

I will however firmly believe that if some of the nay sayers pick up a few of the 25th and take a few photographs with them, you will see

that they are superior when it comes to photography as opposed to the old school stuff. - The molds are better, the expressions are pretty

good as well (though you get some classic faces from the older lines, I never really liked the overly humorous faces on them - even as a kid

I never got why Flint was smirking all the time.)

[Sonneilon]

I looked thru 'em all and one could say this case study is a bit biased. Don't take offense Haradrel, I absolutely applaud what you've done here. HOWEVER...

I would've done a shot using ALL Storm Shadows to make the point for the 1st sample. Can ARAH Storm Shadow get into those positions? Personally, I don't know.

Sample 2. You are using a JvC Flint vs 25A Flint. Do you have a comic book Flint or an original ARAH Flint to sample against?

Sample 3. Now I get it. That division between waist and torso throws ya off unless they have something to cover it (DTC Cobra Trooper, for example). HOWEVER, with us taking pictures, there are ways to get around this, right? Foto manipulation???

Sample 4. I personally don't get the man boobs problems.

Sample 5. The looking up problem. I think this is very debatable. A lot of the 25A can NOT look up. BUT a lot of the bastard era figures can't either. I just pulled out what I have and you want a small list of those who can NOT? Widescope, VvV Duke, ST Recondo, JvC Beach Head, JvC Dusty, etc. Some can look down a bit better (JvC Roadblock, ST Crosshair, ST REcondo, etc). The ONLY one that I can find quickly that can look up is Major Barrage and he's using that swell SW joint system. Comic Pack Tunnel Rat can look up and down too but Cross Country can't.

Also, ARAH figures have heads that can swivel 360!

Sample 6. The sitting issue. I personally don't care. So what if they have to sit like Sharon Stone most of the time??? lol I understand that sitting is a big issue but I have a bigger beef with a guy like Duke not getting 90 degrees out of his elbows.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]I looked thru 'em all and one could say this case study is a bit biased. Don't take offense Haradrel, I absolutely applaud what you've done here. HOWEVER...[/QUOTE]


No offence taken - it was the figures I had as an example, chosen at random. :)

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
I would've done a shot using ALL Storm Shadows to make the point for the 1st sample. Can ARAH Storm Shadow get into those positions? Personally, I don't know.
[/QUOTE]

I would like to have done that too, but I don't have the ARAH Stormy - Anybody else care to post a picture (that has both) ?

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Sample 2. You are using a JvC Flint vs 25A Flint. Do you have a comic book Flint or an original ARAH Flint to sample against?
[/QUOTE]

Again no, my options are quite limited, so I used what was at hand. Again somebody else might make a better comparison. But all in all this was in general - So my points still stand.

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Sample 3. Now I get it. That division between waist and torso throws ya off unless they have something to cover it (DTC Cobra Trooper, for example). HOWEVER, with us taking pictures, there are ways to get around this, right? Foto manipulation???
[/QUOTE]

Bingo! :) What I am saying is that both lines have the same issue, just a tad variation of it. Taste/preference thing again ;)

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Sample 4. I personally don't get the man boobs problems.
[/QUOTE]

Me neither, but its a taste thing me thinks.

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Sample 5. The looking up problem. I think this is very debatable. A lot of the 25A can NOT look up.
[/QUOTE]

Here I disagree and would like to point back to the pictures as proof. They can look up, they don't have the same range of head movement (which is a completely different thing), by using the torso they can move their upperbody back and look up. Its actually more natural then the ARAH figures this way.

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
BUT a lot of the bastard era figures can't either. I just pulled out what I have and you want a small list of those who can NOT? Widescope, VvV Duke, ST Recondo, JvC Beach Head, JvC Dusty, etc. Some can look down a bit better (JvC Roadblock, ST Crosshair, ST REcondo, etc). The ONLY one that I can find quickly that can look up is Major Barrage and he's using that swell SW joint system. Comic Pack Tunnel Rat can look up and down too but Cross Country can't.
[/QUOTE]

That was my point. There probably is or will be 25th that won't have the same headmovement/upperbody movement - but this isn't news as the older lines had the same problems - Take for example ARAH(?) Jinx - She can't turn her head very well, and she can't look up

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Also, ARAH figures have heads that can swivel 360!
[/QUOTE]
Not sure if that is a good or bad thing ;)

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]
Sample 6. The sitting issue. I personally don't care. So what if they have to sit like Sharon Stone most of the time??? lol I understand that sitting is a big issue but I have a bigger beef with a guy like Duke not getting 90 degrees out of his elbows.[/QUOTE]

:) I whole heartedly agree.
One of the "problems" of the 25th line is that you can't get 90 degrees out of elbows without cutting - I have never cut the elbows but still I am able to create natural poses for them without to much hassle.
Hopefully this is one of those things that will be looked at by Hasbro for future releases (they fixed the "diapers" so maybe they will fix this as well?).

The Vipers for example can Kneel perfectly - also a problem for most 25th, again a problem which can be overcome with some ingenuity.


Good to see this debate "rage" on. Who knows we might be able to change a few perceptions and maybe address a few future issues for Hasbro in one go

[troopsofdoom]

I don't want to be overly critical but the proper term for "man boobs" is "pectorals".

I think the chest articulation makes the 25A figures look more muscular but the ARAH waist movement was more natural and being able to lean from side to side, they have more range.

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]I don't want to be overly critical but the proper term for "man boobs" is "pectorals".

I think the chest articulation makes the 25A figures look more muscular but the ARAH waist movement was more natural and being able to lean from side to side, they have more range.[/QUOTE]

Hehe, I guess man boobs has been the official slang for something we don't like. I also dub the bastard era figures bearers of "gorilla arms" ;) :p

On the chest articulation, I disagree (not something new) The 25th lean more naturally to the side instead of having the whole upper body follow, you can turn them somewhat. But I dub this up for debate.

[Stormer]

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]I don't want to be overly critical but the proper term for "man boobs" is "pectorals".[/QUOTE]
No, I can tell you there's definitely a difference. As much as I wish it were otherwise, I unfortunately don't have large, defined pectorals...

[Sonneilon]

Haradrel, the looking up issue, I was thinking of JUST the head itself, not using the chest piece to help. But it's probably hit and miss on all 3 sides of the eras (4 if you include Extreme, 5 w/ the 8"?). Fotography wise, just take the picture from a lower angle and from the back. Or do the same with the front and just the head. lol!

[troopsofdoom]

[QUOTE=haradrel]On the chest articulation, I disagree (not something new) The 25th lean more naturally to the side instead of having the whole upper body follow, you can turn them somewhat. But I dub this up for debate.[/QUOTE]
None of the 25A figures I own have chest articulation that allow them to lean to the side. (For peeking or shooting around corners.)

[vader9900]

This is getting sooo boring! I'm out! :rolleyes:

[Urban Saboteur]

[QUOTE=haradrel] Here I have to say that you are wrong, and I'll prove it with pictures. He has actually the same range of movement as the older figures.
see here:
(Stormy looking up) (http://i245.photobucket.com/albums/gg73/haradrel_2008/08-Stormylookingup.jpg)
in the picture jinx actually can't look up at all!

I think I've proven that some of those issues were not completely accurate, whilst the rest was a taste/personal preference thing.
[/QUOTE]

Right. First of all when a normal person looks up at something they generally use their neck do they not?

In your pic you have all the figures with bent knees.. now.. if you could actually show me a figure of the 25th anniversary using his head/neck joint actually looking up.. then my point would be inaccurate..
don't get me the wrong way, I aint saying the RAH figures were any better for it either, I'm just saying for a modern figure that's so ''Brilliantly touted'' across the action figure world.. it's actually quite a crud thing they can't look up properly.

I'll get you a pic of a proper figure that can look up and show you what i mean.. ;)

[Urban Saboteur]

http://i173.photobucket.com/albums/w74/UrbanSaboteur/DSC00944.jpg

Ok, no bent knees or arched back and he's looking up using the articulation in the neck... this is what i was referring to. ;)
25th Anniversary figures would be alot better if they had articulation in the neck/head. The fact it's just a stub and head is a hinderence to the sculpt :o

[haradrel]

I know what you were saying with the looking up part. But you have to be more specific. Just the head is completely different. And its not natural, try looking up and you'll see that you will arch your back somewhat as well as bend the knees if its "way up there", just moving your head isn't natural at all. (where the head goes the body follows).
I think Sonny said it best that its hit and miss all across the lines with that one.

So they can look up, they just can't look up with just their heads - which I figure is a good thing because the neck looks weirder that way with the pop-on/off heads.

[Urban Saboteur]

It's good that you realise what i was referring to..

I quote from my earlier post.
"The solid nub on top of the torso (for example no ball joint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard.."

I referred to both the head and neck in my post.. not sure where it was i lost you.. but nevermind.. :o

Back to what you posted:

"Here I have to say that you are wrong, and I'll prove it with pictures. He has actually the same range of movement as the older figures.
see here:
(Stormy looking up)
in the picture jinx actually can't look up at all!"

I wasn't so much wrong was I? I mean I didnt say that the 25th were better or worse than the RAH.. just simply I'm pointing out they aren't all they can be.. and if you can refer back to me earlier post.. I'm actually against hasbro going back to Oring.. :o

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]It's good that you realise what i was referring to..

I referred to both the head and neck in my post.. not sure where it was i lost you.. but nevermind.. :o

I wasn't so much wrong was I?[/QUOTE]

"The solid nub on top of the torso (for example no ball joint neck) is a bad move, sure you can pop the head off, but on the 25th Stormshadow I reviewed, he can't look up.. as in to look up at a sentry on guard.."


Well you stated that they can't look up, which they can, but they have to use their body as well - as most of the ARAH figures and bastardsline. I took notice in that and not the head/neck thing as that is pretty obvious (I hope!).

But this just nitpicking really. I guess we agree to a point here :)


[QUOTE=Urban Saboteur]
I mean I didnt say that the 25th were better or worse than the RAH.. just simply I'm pointing out they aren't all they can be.. and if you can refer back to me earlier post.. I'm actually against hasbro going back to Oring.. :o
[/QUOTE]

No no, misinterpit me correctly :) I totally got your point that they don't have optimal head movement - but that this isnt neccicarily better or worse. I agree that they could be better - you were just playing devils advocate (as I did a few post earlier) :) Its all good.

[Sonneilon]

I'm not against change. I don't feel it'd be a backwards step to go back to o-ring if they can fix things right.

[Agent Viper]

Heres my opinion.

25th-

GOOD- something out of the ordinary, New, fresh.

BAD- Somr crappy figure designs, massive repaints and reuse of weapons and gear, and also, a loss of major fanbase.( Frank,Outrider,etc)


o Ring

Good-Detailed,Fun,Original

Bad- Joints snapping, O rings breaking
The cost too D*** much.


Thats why I like hte 25th, remakes of the originals for us to see what we missed and older geezers to relive their past.

[Outrider]

[QUOTE=Agent Viper]O rings breaking.[/QUOTE]

But they're so easy to replace; a small phillips head screwdriver and a bag of spare o-rings (Smalljoes sell 'em by the hundred), and your done!

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Outrider]But they're so easy to replace; a small phillips head screwdriver and a bag of spare o-rings (Smalljoes sell 'em by the hundred), and your done![/QUOTE]


Still it entails extra unwanted work and expenses - much like the "not being able to bend 90 degrees" on the 25th - easily fixable with a scalpel/knife, but still unwanted work and expense ;)