cartoon movie.

[lehsreh]

the poll about the o-ring went exactly as i expected it to go. now im wondering what everyone thought about the cartoon movie. good idea or bad idea? vote and discuss.

[Self-Modifier]

I think we need a "middle ground" option. I didn't hate it, but I certainly didn't love it either. I liked aspects of it. Most notably, it was arguably Duke's biggest role in the whole show next to the original mini-series. Of course, the reason was that he was going to die, so they wanted to build him up first... But he managed to dodge that bullet (or snake, as it were) in the end... So he single-handedly trounces Serpentor, and (thanks to some quick re-writes) lives to tell the tale!

Also, I like the concept of Cobra-La, but I hated that Cobra Commander was one of them. They should have been their own faction, with no ties to Cobra. I was also disappointed with nearly all the Cobras except Serpentor and the Commander being relegated to background characters. On the other hand, nearly every Joe from '84 to '86 (and a few from '83 and '87) had at least one line and/or something to do in the movie, so that was nice.

And of course, the opening movie with the attack on the Statue of Liberty was pretty much the best animated G.I. Joe sequence ever... And it allowed Duke to reclaim the opening "Yo Joe!" from Flint, who, following the first two mini-series, had usurped it (along with Duke's voice) for the seasons 1 and 2 openings.

[Agent Viper]

After searchingf long enough, i was able to watch it.

It was beautiful. I loved it like the original Transfomers movie ( watching it for the 18th time right now ) ohh, Starscream's Death.

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red]i loved it myself. i thought the animations was top notch and the story was great. only 3 things i would change, but im ok with them anyway.

1, as many think cobra la should not have had ties with cobra commander.

2, although most like him, i hated falcon and thought he should just have a filler role.

3, duke should have died as was planned. i hated optimus up until he got killed in the movie, then i found new respect for him, of course that cold have been because we got rodimus as a leader who sucked bigger then any leader ever. if duke had died like optimus, i may like him today, instead he is still one of the worst joe creations ever, imo. [/COLOR]

[Agent Viper]

The only reason they didn't kill Duke was this-

In the special features of the old Transformers Anniversary Edition the creators were talking about the uproar Optimus made when he died, and thats why they rewrote the script to the gijoe movie for no uproars

[Sonneilon]

At that age, I was cool with the movie. Cobra Commander came from a special race of people??? WOW! But at the same time, I had the comic book which didn't cater to that at all and that was cool. I was able to separate the two canons.

[haradrel]

I didn't grow up with the series only the comic books so this wasn't really for me.
The only "real" gijoe is in the comic books and on the file cards for me - The cartoons are just a alternate comedic universe that never happened (much like highlander 2 and Beverly hills cop 3 :p).

I have however watched a lot of the episodes from the sunbow series as well as the movie and the other longer episodes.

I saw no reason for Duke and Scarlett - Scarlett and Snake Eyes makes so much more sense, but I guess the cartoon didn't make much sense either way (rhyming roadblock comes to mind). Not my cup of tea but something a lot of you grew up with and accept as the original joeverse.

A few funny scenes in between (both in the movie and series) but again not my cup of tea. For those of you who hasn't seen neither the movie nor the series, there are episodes out on youtube (or you can buy it off amazon or equivalent).

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=haradrel]
I saw no reason for Duke and Scarlett - Scarlett and Snake Eyes makes so much more sense, but I guess the cartoon didn't make much sense either way (rhyming roadblock comes to mind). Not my cup of tea but something a lot of you grew up with and accept as the original joeverse.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]

see, this is what i dont understand. how everyone sees it more likely to have scarlett with snake eyes then with duke? i think this beauty and the beast romance is more far fetched then cobra la. especially with him leaving her on the wedding day every week. i loved the roadblock rhyme thing, as i did the twins finishing sentences.

i think its what you got first. i got the cartoons, and hadnt read a comic until about 3 years ago and found the first so many rich in story, but lacking big time in characteristics. everyone in the cartoons had a different attitude, whereas the comic everyone was all alike, except a few like clutch. its like duke, flint, zap or stalker could be the same person. [/COLOR]

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]

see, this is what i dont understand. how everyone sees it more likely to have scarlett with snake eyes then with duke?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Because of their background in martial arts (common interests) as well as their background given in the comics which is well thought out. Why would Duke and Scarlett hook up? That really makes no sense - just because he is the main protagonist from the joe side? That's silly.

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]
i loved the roadblock rhyme thing, as i did the twins finishing sentences.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

It might have been funny at the time, but now its kind of stereotypical, if you threw the same thing into a cartoon today then it would be stamped racist (well that's what I think at least).

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]
i think its what you got first. i got the cartoons, and hadnt read a comic until about 3 years ago and found the first so many rich in story, but lacking big time in characteristics. everyone in the cartoons had a different attitude, whereas the comic everyone was all alike, except a few like clutch. its like duke, flint, zap or stalker could be the same person. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Heh funny, I think its the other way around - all of the characters in the cartoons seem to have the same lame puns and humor. I can't really tell them apart except from their uniforms. In the comics I got a sense of personality.
But yeah seems like what people grew up with first is what is closest to their hearts. And its all gijoe so its all good in the end ;)

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=haradrel]Because of their background in martial arts (common interests) as well as their background given in the comics which is well thought out. Why would Duke and Scarlett hook up? That really makes no sense - just because he is the main protagonist from the joe side? That's silly.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]duke, as well as many other joes have backgrounds in martial arts. also i see he and scarlett actually getting more time alone then she would with snake eyes. and as i said, he leaves her at the alter once a week, any girls no alter what they self esteem is will leave the guy in time. i would put her with anyone but snake eyes. have you noticed that snake eyes always has to have either storm shadow or scarlett with him. so they can tell the reader what he is thinking, i dont like that part of him either. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=haradrel]It might have been funny at the time, but now its kind of stereotypical, if you threw the same thing into a cartoon today then it would be stamped racist (well that's what I think at least).[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]??? i dont see how a black guy rhyming would be racist??? do you mean because of rap or something? was rap even around back then, i dont remember it.[/COLOR]


[QUOTE=haradrel]Heh funny, I think its the other way around - all of the characters in the cartoons seem to have the same lame puns and humor. I can't really tell them apart except from their uniforms. In the comics I got a sense of personality.
But yeah seems like what people grew up with first is what is closest to their hearts. And its all gijoe so its all good in the end[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Red]
i dont see this. duke was the all american, spirit was spiritual, bazooka was dumb, wildbill was different, roadblock rhymed, shipwreck was goofy, quick kick did the voices, beach head was stern, storm shadow although bad had honor, mutt was quick tempered. the comic everyone was all american, serious about their jobs and never joked, except clutch.[/COLOR]

[silentdusty]

I voted yes I loved it because as a kid I really did, seeing it as an adult, while I still liked aspects of it the whole Cobra-La thing really does nothing for me especially the whole Cobra La la la la la, battle cry which was annoying the first time, and really gets annoying after that. I also agree that it would have been better if Duke had died, I think it would have given the movie more meaning. I for one liked the character of Falcon, and I still like the figure. As far as the Duke/Scarlett, Scarlett/Snake Eyes romance, I always thought the latter was a better story, the beauty and the beast idea of it is more appealing, and she still takes him back every time. Duke and Scarlett was too predictable, beautiful woman, and the handsome All American guy.

[haradrel]

[COLOR=Red]duke, as well as many other joes have backgrounds in martial arts.[/COLOR]

But its not his main characteristic - as a Ninja Master Snake Eyes would have more to say on that matter (no pun intended), I really think that Scarlett would be attracted to someone who was a Master more then someone who just did some martial arts - because basically all of the joes has some martial arts training.
Quick Kick for example would be just as good a choice for her as Duke would if you put it that way.

[COLOR=Red]
also i see he and scarlett actually getting more time alone then she would with snake eyes. [/COLOR]

huh? How so? - Duke has responsibilities beyond a normal trooper, wouldn't it be the other way around?

[COLOR=Red]
and as i said, he leaves her at the alter once a week, any girls no alter what they self esteem is will leave the guy in time. [/COLOR]

Well they have a long history - compare it to people who beat their wives - its hard for the wives to leave ;) (yeah I know crude comparison, but I think you get my point with the psychological effect)

[COLOR=Red]
i would put her with anyone but snake eyes. have you noticed that snake eyes always has to have either storm shadow or scarlett with him. so they can tell the reader what he is thinking, i dont like that part of him either. [/COLOR]

Most of the time they don't say what he is thinking - I think he does an excellent job on that on his own. I think that in the cartoon he got underused because the people who made the cartoon didn't know what to do with a mute character.

[COLOR=Red]??? i dont see how a black guy rhyming would be racist??? do you mean because of rap or something? was rap even around back then, i dont remember it.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

G.I. Joe: The Movie :1987
Hip hop lyricism saw its biggest change with the popularity of Run-D.M.C.'s Raising Hell in the mid-1980s
The 1980s saw a huge wave of commercialized rap music
the 1980s were characterized by verses mostly constrained to straightforward structures and rhyme schemes,
(taken from wikipedia)

Rap was at its height in the late 80's early 90's - The whole hip hop culture had its "golden age" about then (well its when it got popular). Heck you even have Snake Eyes Break dancing at one time in the cartoons!

[COLOR=Red]
i dont see this. duke was the all american, spirit was spiritual, bazooka was dumb, wildbill was different, roadblock rhymed, shipwreck was goofy, quick kick did the voices, beach head was stern, storm shadow although bad had honor, mutt was quick tempered. the comic everyone was all american, serious about their jobs and never joked, except clutch.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

If you still have some of the old comics, I would suggest you take a look at them again - the background for the characters are actually very well thought out, and deeper then the cartoons - which I still think to closely resembles one another.

Duke may be all american, but so is Flint, Lady Jaye, Beachhead etc. - Truth be told I never got Duke, in the comics nor cartoon, it wasn't until the devils due made him an ex-secret agent that I started to like him.
Spirit was spiritual - but so was Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow with their eastern spirituality.
Bazooka was dumb, but so was Falcon, and a whole host of other characters just to make the series funny for the kids.
I can't even remember wildbill,so no comment there.
Rhyming Roadblock I have covered already - I just found it annoying (but again I didn't grow up with the cartoons)
I could go on - but I'll rather just agree to disagree here (as this would go on forever ;) )

[Self-Modifier]

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red]i got the cartoons, and hadnt read a comic until about 3 years ago and found the first so many rich in story, but lacking big time in characteristics. everyone in the cartoons had a different attitude, whereas the comic everyone was all alike, except a few like clutch. its like duke, flint, zap or stalker could be the same person. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Boom! I say that all the time! I would love to set up a "blind taste test" for G.I. Joe comics-- Just read various lines from the likes of Hawk, Duke, Flint, Stalker, etc., alound, and see if anyone can tell who said what! They all read like the same person to me... Which is weird, because Larry Hama proved on other titles (most notably Wolverine), that he can write characters with different voices.

On the other hand, I think many characters on the cartoon would be easily recognizable based on a blind reading of their lines. Not all of them, mind you --I will admit that-- But many of them had different enough ways of speaking that there would be differences. Some of them may be stereotypical (Roadblock rhyming, Ace's poker puns, Spirit's Indian mysticism, etc.), but at least the writers tried to make them sound different: Duke was the "man of action" leader-type, Flint was the more personable leader, Shipwreck was the grouch with a heart of gold, Barbecue was always wryly sarcastic, and so on. Of course, much of this can be attributed to the excellent vocal work by some of the premier voice actors of the 80s, but I still maintain that many of their lines could be recognized without the specific actors reading them.

None of this is to say that I prefer one continuity over the other, though. I love the comics for their complex storylines, serialized nature, and soap operatics. However, I also enjoy the cartoon (even more in recent years than ever before) for really bringing the Joe characters to life. If there was some way to put the cartoon characters into the comic's storyline, I would call that the ultimate G.I. Joe universe.

[lehsreh]

[QUOTE=haradrel]


If you still have some of the old comics, I would suggest you take a look at them again - the background for the characters are actually very well thought out, and deeper then the cartoons - which I still think to closely resembles one another.

[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Red]i think i am the odd man out in this poll, because i think more on here like the comic then the toon. although it doesnt show yet. and im not gonna debate, lol. we knew we each would have our own opinions. but your last point was exactly what i said, the first so many issues did have very different characters. up until around the time they started bringing all the new characters in. it was like "well what happens here, oh, he would say this" then "mmm what happens here, oh, ok this character would say this" and it would be the same thing because there were so many characters that they all ran together.[/COLOR]

[lehsreh]

[COLOR=Red][SIZE=7]realism
[/SIZE]
sorry, im taking up to much space here, but i wanted to say one thing. many say they dont like the cartoon because it wasnt realistic, neither is the comic. the comic may be more so, but its not 10% realistic. anyway, do you think a comic book or cartoons is a place to look for realism??? we use these to get away from the boredom of real life, if all cartoons and comics were real, why would we want them, we could watch our neighbors. they are not meant to be real, why would anyone want a cartoon that is realistic!?! im not trying to sway anyone, everyone has their own way of seeing things, but...

[SIZE=4]...looking for realism in a comic book or cartoon is like having sex for virginity.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=lehsreh][COLOR=Red][SIZE=7]realism
[/SIZE]

[SIZE=4]...looking for realism in a comic book or cartoon is like having sex for virginity.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Hehe I get what you are saying. But its realism up to a point that interests me.
Meeting a sailor out in the desert and have him join the team because he helps them out doesn't really smell right to me. Having a guy work his way up the chain of command and join the team on his merits as a sailor man (along with a pet parrot named polly) is more real to me.
I guess I want the reality thats akin to fuzzy science (if you know the term? - hmmm if its the right term that I remember :confused: )

Cartoons and comics should be fantastic and out of the ordinary - normal stories wouldn't really satisfy anybody, you need that little bit of escapism to make it interesting. But again in the comics they used a lot of real world military lingo, had real guns (not laser guns) and people died! (well less then would be in real life - but I can't remember anybody dying in the cartoon).

[Sonneilon]

Cartoon went where the comic wouldn't go and vice versa. The Cartoon was more accessible to people and more 'layman'.


Rap's been around for quite some time. 70s? GrandMaster Flash & the Furious Five, and Sugarhill Gang come to mind. 80s ushered in Run-DMC (w/ the help of Aerosmith), Public Enemy, NWA, Eric B & Rakim, Boogie Down Productions (KRS-1), Ice-T (Colors), Beastie Boys, a load of others. Perhaps us old folks remember YO MTV Raps! w/ Ed Yella and Doctor Dre?

And dude, the comic was all about realism! Well... The Joe side in the earlier issues were more on par with 'realism' than Cobra with their giant robots and aqua machines and whatever else CC felt like throwing at 'em. The issues between 15-19 were pretty tight, y'know? But either were just a toy ad. Hama could only do so much...

[Rambo]

I voted YES! The only BUT for me is that sucka BigLob....

[Stormer]

I voted yes -- at the time, when I'd hardly had the opportunity to read any comics, I loved watching Action Force videos as it was the only way to see the characters "in action" for me. And the movie was a big deal. When I got the chance to read the comics, I found myself a lot more engrossed in them and caring about the characters & events a lot more, soon coming to consider it the "real" continuity (helped by the filecards tying in). But I'm still able to enjoy watching the movie on its own merit.

Regarding characterisations -- yes, I'll readily agree the cartoon had more identifiable, distinctive characters, but I will argue that this was because they were often assigned just the one characteristic and everything else was built around that so they could often be more caricature than realistic character.

Which leads into the "realism" debate. Of course the comics weren't attempting to recreate events that were completely believable for the real world. To dismiss the idea of realism in "fantasy" comics (which includes GI Joe, superheroes, sci-fi, sword & sorcery, etc) as something they're not meant to have just displays the fact that you haven't read enough comics to understand it. Realism doesn't mean a broad, all-encompassing, everything-must-mirror-real-life portrayal -- comics do present you with a scenario that requires a suspension of disbelief for the sake of escapism but that doesn't have to apply to EVERY aspect of the story. For the most part, modern comics (going back to Marvel in the '60s) have endeavoured to introduce realism by presenting a fantastic situation or turn of events but then attempting to play everything around it out as it might actually happen -- people reacting as actual people might react in the given situation, laws of physics being obeyed beyond any established fantasy element -- so that everything BEYOND the established fantastic factor remains credible as something the reader could identify with and more readily accept. Look at Batman comics from the '50s compared to today -- back then he would go to a boy scout meeting as a guest speaker before flying to the moon to fight aliens, whereas now he prowls Gotham at night while other people question his sanity. The GI Joe comic WAS more realistic than the cartoon, because while it had some fantastic elements (like clones) it didn't have the "anything goes" style the cartoon did (clones, laser guns, ghosts, monsters, magic, secret civilisations...) and characters often treated the sci-fi elements as a bigger deal. It used military terminology appropriate to the characters' backgrounds, plus looked into political and beurocratic repercussions of the team's actions. And the characters had more depth to them than being built around a single personality quirk; I found that characters like Stalker, Spirit and Flint DID have distinct personalities even if their speech patterns didn't make them so readily identifiable, and the subtleties of this made for a richer and, yes, more REALISTIC experience.

Now, I'm not saying this was necessarily BETTER -- with such a huge cast it's going to be difficult to make everyone be an individual and when you're trying to sell toys you're going to want everyone to stand out in their own way. Watching an episode of the cartoon was generally a fun, action-packed experience that carried you along easily.

On this note -- who here has actually read the DDP series, continuously? Self-Modifier, you say you'd like to see the cartoon characters in the comics storyline; right from the relaunch, DDP was acknowledging the cartoon's role in the brand's enduring popularity and said that they would be aiming to work in some of the things that made the cartoon's characters stand out. They may not have gone the all-out caricature route but a lot of characters DO feel a lot more like they did in the cartoons.

And finally, don't use "leaving her at the altar every week" as a criticism of the Snake Eyes/Scarlett relationship. That happened once, in the DDP series, and personally I feel it added a bit more depth to them as individuals and as a couple. Might as well criticise cartoon Dusty by saying he kept switching sides. This post is long enough already to not go into details, but I feel Hama did a very good job of showing how & why Scarlett would be intrigued by and then drawn to Snake Eyes, and then considering their personal histories and current situation it seems perfectly REALISTIC for them to endure a somewhat turbulent relationship...

[troopsofdoom]

I voted no.

I had been hardcore into the comic long before I seen the movie or cartoon. With the comic being more mature and realistic (as far as they could go under the Comic Code Authority, anyway), the animated side of GI Joe felt like a step backwards for me.

Don’t worry, I’m not bashing the movie or cartoon. I’m sure if I’d seen them before the comic I would have enjoyed them lot it more. It’s just a matter of first impressions.

(Off topic but speaking of comics, did anybody read Larry Hama’s Nth Man back in the day? There’s some figures I’d like to see made.)

These polls are great, keep them coming.

[Self-Modifier]

[QUOTE=Stormer]On this note -- who here has actually read the DDP series, continuously? Self-Modifier, you say you'd like to see the cartoon characters in the comics storyline; right from the relaunch, DDP was acknowledging the cartoon's role in the brand's enduring popularity and said that they would be aiming to work in some of the things that made the cartoon's characters stand out. They may not have gone the all-out caricature route but a lot of characters DO feel a lot more like they did in the cartoons.[/QUOTE]

I read a great deal of it, but finally stopped after about 12 issues of America's Elite. Too many factors (pre-eminently all the wanton deaths for death's sake) had killed my enjoyment by then. And yes, I did appreciate that they tried to work the TV show personalities into their characterizations. You could tell that cartoon Shipwreck, in particular, was one of Blaylock's favorites. I just wish the actual stories featuring those characters had been better!

I think maybe I'm going soft in my old age. The cartoon has just really grown on me over the past couple of years, to the point that I think I may almost prefer it over the comics. Of course, I haven't read the full run in years, so if I did that, I bet my opinion would shift again.

Also, I don't think I've mentioned that though I love the cartoon's characterizations of all the Joes more, I actually far prefer the depth and complexity the comics gave to all the Cobras. I just wish that complexity hadn't led to Destro, the Baroness, and Zartan all reforming late in the Marvel run!

[haradrel]

[QUOTE=Stormer]I voted yes -- at the time, when .....[/QUOTE]

Great post! I think you found the some of the words/thoughts I was struggling to get out (thanks for doing my work for me ;) )

[Flint]

Personally for me I liked it, but I wish they would have introduced more characters from the 87 line & down played Cobra-La a little bit. :)

[vader9900]

Would you believe I never saw the Movie until tonight. In 1987 I was a Senior in H.S. The last thing on my mind then was a GI Joe cartoon movie. I got the entire cartoon run on DVD including the movie back in January, this discusion prompted me to watch it tonight. My Joeverse is pretty much based upon the Toys & thier File Cards. I own about 2 dozen of the original comics which I have read & never watched the cartoons until this year. I voted positive in this poll because I did enjoy the movie. I was entertaining and I love seeing some of my favorite figures & vehicles "come to life". Some things that I did not like about this flick - Falcon, I did not like how he was made out to be a slacker in the begining of the movie. I can't believe that Don Johnson did his voice, this was right in the middle of Miami Vice (I don't think he needed the money). Cobra-La is not part of my Joeverse because of the craptstic figures, after seeing this now it for sure will never be part of my Joes! The best Cobra-La character was Pythona & she never got a figure! I did not like Cobra Commander or what happened to him. My Cobra Commander is a ruthless, disguntled American citizen (much like one of todays modern Militia leaders) hellbent on overthrowing the government through terrorism. He is not a experiment gone bad freak put here by Golobulus. The whole Cobra-La idea was just plain stupid. The biologial weapons idea was cool though, very Yuuzhan Vong from Star Wars. Sgt Slaughter & the Renegades do not get used by me much, this movie did not change my mind on that. This was a great marketing movie that showcased alot of the '86 & '87 figures & vehicles. There was some great GI Joe action, though I would have prefered to see Joes fighting Cobra & not Cobra-La, but this is done in every 30 minute Joe cartoon, so I can see how something different was needed for the movie to stand out. At 40 years old, seeing this for the first time, I was entertained, it was fun to watch. If I was under 12 I would have been entranced! Oh, & BTW Duke almost dies...TOO KOOL!!!