JoeDios.com Forums - An "End The Jerk Ratings" initiative?

Jay

06-10-2009, 10:12 PM

Hey guys.
I'm certain I'm not the only one tired of seeing people give members' photos poor ratings and not saying why...
When someone posts a great pic like this:
http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/showimage.php?i=21644&c=7
That's only got a rating of 3, and all the comments are absolutely positive, it makes no sense.

From what I heard, Hammerfel either doesn't know how to disable the ratings, or simply can't.
Personally, for a while now I've been countering these "poor ratings without an accurate criticism" with ratings of 5 (I don't think anyone here deserves less) but I'm only one member and there seem to be more than one person handing out those ratings.

So I'm asking you guys, my friends, my compadres, my partners-in-crime... will you join me for this, to force the people that give crappy ratings without a reason to either stop, or start posting actual critiques rather than hide behind an anonymous rating?

Pit Viper v2

06-10-2009, 10:59 PM

rnrhero

06-10-2009, 11:05 PM

I have always thought that 3 and up was pretty good. What I mean is, we can give alot of praise but still not think that a photo is perfect. Maybe I like the set but the focus is out a bit. I will comment on the greatness of the set but might still give it a 3. I really like most of the pictures that go up but dont think they are all perfect 5's. on the flip side. I have seen very few that deserve 1 or 2's but there have been a few. I usually just choose not to vote at all. Like, Im not a fan of the crossover pics or not joe related pics at all so I just choose not to vote instead of voting 1 because I dont like the subject. Now that would be rude.

Prince Adam

06-10-2009, 11:17 PM

To me it takes A LOT for a pic to be a 1 or a 2, 3's are okay but I think what people forget is the general effort other folks put into their shots. The general consesus ought to be if it's not you're thing just ignore it.

I think at this point most folks just ignore the ratings because it's been abused so. I for one don't pay them much mind. Overall I think it's fairly harmless and would even prefer a few measley yellow blocks as opposed to someone just nit picking the most miniscule of details, and I know I'm not alone there.

Outrider

06-11-2009, 12:05 AM

Jay, this issue has been raised before, I don't think there's a lot that can be done. The one star bandit seems to come and go every now and then, and if that's how he gets his jollies, then I feel sorry for him. Personally, I dislike the rating system and never use it. Our work is like all art, it's subjective, I don't see how it can be given a rating as such. You either like it or you don't. If you like it, say so. If not, have the courage to put your name to it and say so as well. Don't just bomb it with a "1" and slink off into cyberspace.

Urban Saboteur

06-11-2009, 04:33 AM

What's to be said or mentioned here that hasn't been said before?

I do think theres a way round it, but asking people to rate *5 to counter those decisions isn't fair, not all bad ratings are down to the one shot phantom.

The best way to deal with it is as the vets have done. Discount the ratings totally. I know I do and so do alot of others here.

I think alot of the contributors here spend time on their sets and photographs.. to primarily to receive feedback on it, to be told if it's good/great or if something could be improved and mainly to share with people who like what they like..
i'd rather receive comments than the yellow ratings. When I first found out about the 'one shot phantom' it pretty much killed my interest in the ratings, how geniune can the ratings be if someone out there is downgrading them every now and then?

As far as Hammerfel doing nothing about it, I think its not simply a case of ticking a button and removing it, i think its a software problem, something that is intergrated into the applications or something and it would cost money to pay a designer or person to fix it. Therefore its easier for us and him if we just ignore the ratings.

EasySimpleStuff

06-11-2009, 05:59 AM

Words of wisdom: ignore it!

Personally I dont pay atenttion to anyones ratings at all...
As I dont take pictures myself (atleast for now) I would think that those who do, would prefer comments rather than "numbers"

Of course there is times when I just look at the pictures here at joedios and dont comment at all... its not that I dont like it or appreciate the hard work and effort put in to the picture... its just that I dont have time, I feel lazy, dont feel like commenting or that the picture is good, but not like superduperuber cool.

Now dont get me wrong, I love almost every picture here, but I usually comment only pictures that are like WOWOMG! Some that are absolutely awesome, but dont "do" it for me, so to speak, are usually left commentless...

I still like them, but being more of a lurker anyway... I'm lazy to comment :D

cyko

06-11-2009, 06:24 AM

Like any public display, we open ourselves up for criticism here, whether it's text or a 1-star-rating. I don't generally rate photos by stars (Google Chrome won't let me; there's always one feature in a forum that doesn't work...). If something blows me away, I might copy the address into Firefox and rate it a 5, but otherwise I'm limited to text.

For the Street Fighter example, the concept was great, and Dreadnok Dread has proven himself with intricate sets. I'm thinking the effects (blur and transparency) overshadowed the actual figures (I can only recognize Guile's hair and Ken's gi). Since the toys are arguably the focus of JoeDios, the rating might've been lower than expected.

I've skipped uploading plenty of photos knowing they were pretty weak (poor focus, boring composition, etc.). When I do get one up, number of views or star ratings don't mean nearly as much to me as someone offering some constructive criticism for improvement or even pointing out what they like.

Rambo

06-11-2009, 07:45 AM

I'd like to see ratings attached to user who rates... well, Outrider is right... this is subjetive.

Agent Viper

06-11-2009, 09:51 AM

I just post my opinion, not rate

lol.

troopsofdoom

06-11-2009, 09:59 AM

[QUOTE=rnrhero]I have always thought that 3 and up was pretty good. What I mean is, we can give alot of praise but still not think that a photo is perfect. Maybe I like the set but the focus is out a bit. I will comment on the greatness of the set but might still give it a 3. I really like most of the pictures that go up but dont think they are all perfect 5's. on the flip side. I have seen very few that deserve 1 or 2's but there have been a few. I usually just choose not to vote at all. Like, Im not a fan of the crossover pics or not joe related pics at all so I just choose not to vote instead of voting 1 because I dont like the subject. Now that would be rude.[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly. Sometimes I vote on on the Top Rated Images section but that's about it.

In my opinion the photos are being rated too high. Even bad photos get five points. On a rare occasions some photos get a four. Looking through the archives, three points or lower are few and far between. Rating accurately is more important than rating high.

If a stellar Outrider photo gets a five, then at the same time an out of focus, incomplete vehicle sitting on a kitchen table gets a five, rating becomes kind of meaningless.

Tracker

06-11-2009, 10:24 AM

oh this is sad of me, but I just learned I can rate image instead of leaving comments, not that i don't like too, but am man of few words and i hate say things like "good picture or cool" all time even though I mean it....... this would help.

Hammerfel

06-11-2009, 11:16 AM

I can disable ratings if that's what we want to do.

I'd rather not, though. Ideally, it would be good to require a post to be able to rate a photo, but I don't know if anyone's done that for vBulletin.

Sonneilon

06-11-2009, 12:05 PM

I have no problem rating a shot 1-2 stars just as I don't have a problem rating a shot 5 stars. 4s not too hard but 3s are middle ground for me and i'd say 99% are ABOVE the average or far BELOW. I don't often comment on 1-2 stars because it should usually be obvious; focus is out of shot, bad lighting, bad composition, etc.

I get the sense some people upload their shots directly to this site w/o ever checking them (you can't always tell your shot is fuzzy on a 2.5" lcd screen on camera) AND the fact the shots aren't resize.

Honestly, I'm a harsh grader. Some of the guys agree, if you see the same stuff over and over w/o progression, I'll start rating LOWER. It sounds mean because it can be hard to step up when your shots are already A+. DaveCW always pushes the envelope, imo. This might be a poor example but take Comic Artist Jim Lee. His artwork was the bomb in X-Men. Then he did WildCATs and got even better. Then he started the Deathblow project, changed his style and it was awesome! But when he did Divine Right, I felt that his work had lost a few steps. Then the work on Batman and whatnot, it's just not as exciting.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Get rid of the ratings, keep 'em up, Boss Fel has the power. Only the masses can sway his decision(s). Well, I think they can at least. :D

Agent Viper

06-11-2009, 12:15 PM

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]I have no problem rating a shot 1-2 stars just as I don't have a problem rating a shot 5 stars. 4s not too hard but 3s are middle ground for me and i'd say 99% are ABOVE the average or far BELOW. I don't often comment on 1-2 stars because it should usually be obvious; focus is out of shot, bad lighting, bad composition, etc.

I get the sense some people upload their shots directly to this site w/o ever checking them (you can't always tell your shot is fuzzy on a 2.5" lcd screen on camera) AND the fact the shots aren't resize.

Honestly, I'm a harsh grader. Some of the guys agree, if you see the same stuff over and over w/o progression, I'll start rating LOWER. It sounds mean because it can be hard to step up when your shots are already A+. DaveCW always pushes the envelope, imo. This might be a poor example but take Comic Artist Jim Lee. His artwork was the bomb in X-Men. Then he did WildCATs and got even better. Then he started the Deathblow project, changed his style and it was awesome! But when he did Divine Right, I felt that his work had lost a few steps. Then the work on Batman and whatnot, it's just not as exciting.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Get rid of the ratings, keep 'em up, Boss Fel has the power. Only the masses can sway his decision(s). Well, I think they can at least. :D[/QUOTE]

100 Percent agreement

tycondrius23

06-11-2009, 03:22 PM

hey Hammer can you rate the pics if your a non-member ? if so maybe you can change it so only a member can post and see if you can track who's doing the such a negative rating . I know thats prob a lot to do .
just an idea

[QUOTE=Hammerfel]I can disable ratings if that's what we want to do.

I'd rather not, though. Ideally, it would be good to require a post to be able to rate a photo, but I don't know if anyone's done that for vBulletin.[/QUOTE]

Scuba Steve

06-11-2009, 04:42 PM

For the longest time I didn't even notice the ratings thing was there. I have given a few good (4-5s) out but half the time I forget to do it. As far as my shots go I appreciate anyone that leaves me a good rating but i'm more intrested in the comments (kind of a comment whore). If you got rid of them I probably wouldn't notice for at least two or three weeks! :D

Mysterious Stranger

06-11-2009, 07:08 PM

I don't pay attention to the ratings at all. I know what I like and if something jumps out at me I comment. Otherwise I could give half a crap about ratings. Just seems like its more of a popularity thing than anything else.

The BATman

06-12-2009, 02:11 AM

I also pretty much ignore the ratings, not because someone puts out random one-star ratings, but for the reason troopsofdoom speaks about above: too many pictures are given high ratings. On some pages of the joedios.com photos section, it's four or five stars for every single picture on the page, completely disregarding differences in quality. I can understand how some people feel even the attempt should be rewarded, not just the result, but this makes the whole ratings system meaningless.

Flatline

06-12-2009, 06:33 AM

[QUOTE=Scuba Steve]For the longest time I didn't even notice the ratings thing was there. I have given a few good (4-5s) out but half the time I forget to do it. As far as my shots go I appreciate anyone that leaves me a good rating but i'm more intrested in the comments (kind of a comment whore). If you got rid of them I probably wouldn't notice for at least two or three weeks! :D[/QUOTE]
OKAY WHORE GREAT COMMENT YOU DID A GREAT JOB YOU GET 5 STARS *****!
SERIOUSLY I DON'T RATE ANYONES PICS IF I COMMENT IT'S TO GIVE ADVISE OR BRING SOMETHING UP THAT CAUGHT MY EYE MY MOMMA TOLD ME IF YOU AINT GOT NOTHING NICE TO SAY SHUT THE $#^& UP! SO I DO. ;)

Death_at_Midnight

06-12-2009, 06:58 AM

I also tend to ignore the ratings. I see them from time to time and wonder if anyone even uses them. I tend not to trust or believe them. Too often I'll come from other sites, usually 3D art sites where I do have other work posted, and those sites tend to have a problem where people have an agenda and will purposely rate an image low, or have a favorite member whom they desire to see have high ratings and will rate them the max all the time, reguardless of the quality of the image. There are always someone posting in forums about the need to be fair with the rating system, and I'm optimistic those who do use the rating system try to be fair, and yet there are always someone who wants to sway their own image or a friend's image, or effect a rival's image in a way that is not fair. So, I simply do not trust ratings on any system.

That is unfortunate because it's a good idea to have them, they can be used for other features for a site--highest rated images in a week, or for the month. Ratings can be used for voting best images in monthly challenges/competitions.

But still, I don't trust them to be accurate.

Outrider

06-12-2009, 03:28 PM

What would be good would be if the rating button was actually part of the reply box, so that it could only be done if you also post a comment. That would put a stop to the one star bomber!

Prince Adam

06-12-2009, 03:36 PM

The irony is that this thread has been rated... WTF?

troopsofdoom

06-12-2009, 04:12 PM

[QUOTE=Prince Adam]The irony is that this thread has been rated... WTF?[/QUOTE]
I gave it a 1 point rating. :p

vader9900

06-12-2009, 07:18 PM

[QUOTE=troopsofdoom]I gave it a 1 point rating. :p[/QUOTE]
Me too, I was wondering how long it would take someone to notice :eek:

Prince Adam

06-12-2009, 08:06 PM

LOL :D Thats kinda funny on both counts.

t34bag

06-13-2009, 08:25 AM

[QUOTE=Jay]Hey guys.
I'm certain I'm not the only one tired of seeing people give members' photos poor ratings and not saying why...
When someone posts a great pic like this:
http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/showimage.php?i=21644&c=7
That's only got a rating of 3, and all the comments are absolutely positive, it makes no sense.

From what I heard, Hammerfel either doesn't know how to disable the ratings, or simply can't.
Personally, for a while now I've been countering these "poor ratings without an accurate criticism" with ratings of 5 (I don't think anyone here deserves less) but I'm only one member and there seem to be more than one person handing out those ratings.

So I'm asking you guys, my friends, my compadres, my partners-in-crime... will you join me for this, to force the people that give crappy ratings without a reason to either stop, or start posting actual critiques rather than hide behind an anonymous rating?[/QUOTE]

... my two cents.

To play the devils advocate... which I tend to do... offten, :)
How can we complain about the rating system?

a rating system is a reflection of the opinions of one's peers. If I didn't like the photo (hypotheticaly speaking), lets say I felt it was too blurry to understand what was going on, and it didn't apeal to me on that point, that would be "my Opinion" and I would give my rating based on that opinion.
If you don't agree with that opinion then that's your business, but what's the point of a ratings system if we all get 5 stars/blocks?

I personaly thought the picture was original and different, but it didn't apeal to my "would I hang it on my wall" meter. so there fore "IF" I used the rating system (which I have never noticed LOL) I would have given it a 3 or 4. that's my opinion
you can't expect everyone to love the pictures you love.

I say this to make a point I don't want to hurt anyone's feelings (why I don't rate pictures) and I hope my objectional comments don't reflect badly on my work or anyone else's

WE (all of us) do what we do because we love it! I say get rid of the system (if possible) and move on :)

P.S. can some one tell me why I'm only getting a 4 rating on my comic? :D

Roland da Thompson Gunner

06-13-2009, 10:15 AM

I never pay attention to the ratings because I didn't even know about them for the longest time, and like others have said, I'd rather get comments than any number of squares.

Whoever votes 1, does it for laughs. Is that how I'd go about it, no, but hey different strokes for different folks. Jay, you've probably given the guy a hell of a laugh and you really shouldn't obsess over something so trivial and pointless on a site based on trivial and pointless things most of us do for fun :)

Death_at_Midnight

06-13-2009, 10:29 AM

[QUOTE=Outrider]What would be good would be if the rating button was actually part of the reply box, so that it could only be done if you also post a comment. That would put a stop to the one star bomber![/QUOTE]

I like Outrider's idea.

Else, I would just keep a rating system for things that require voting.. such as a theme challenge.

Outrider

06-13-2009, 04:05 PM

[QUOTE=t34bag]...that's my opinion
you can't expect everyone to love the pictures you love.[/QUOTE]

You're absolutely correct. The problem is not with someone disliking a picture, its more that it would be nice to say why rather than just rate it without any reason. Contructive criticism can only help us all get better. I would hate to think a new member to the site would be discouraged and stop posting if his pics get unexplained low ratings.

Jay

06-13-2009, 04:35 PM

[QUOTE=Outrider]You're absolutely correct. The problem is not with someone disliking a picture, its more that it would be nice to say why rather than just rate it without any reason. Contructive criticism can only help us all get better. I would hate to think a new member to the site would be discouraged and stop posting if his pics get unexplained low ratings.[/QUOTE]
This.

See, I have no problem with people not liking one of my pics.

But when there's nothing but positive comments in the picture's thread but a crap rating, how is one to learn what he did wrong that he may work on improving that in subsequent photos?

I know Hammerfel once had it set so people couldn't give out ratings until they'd done, I think it was a hundred posts...
What I can't help but wonder is, can that number be raised to one million or so?

Urban Saboteur

06-13-2009, 05:07 PM

[QUOTE=Jay]
But when there's nothing but positive comments in the picture's thread but a crap rating, how is one to learn what he did wrong that he may work on improving that in subsequent photos?
[/QUOTE]

erm.. he reads the comments people have put... obviously if he has 10+ comments all saying its a great photo and great setup/execution and then a rating of 2* then someone has obviously downgraded it bad without commenting why.. either because they dont like the figure choice or because they simply dont like the picture.... Anyone active in this community will know by now the ratings have been abused before by other people.

Hence why we are discussing this. It's only really a problem if you believe the rating system cant be abused.
The fact of the matter is if the ratings were like Outrider said.. embedded into the 'add reply/comment' then it would stop the one star bandit from commenting and stop people giving out harsh ratings without even saying why they rated it like that. With the current setup we all come to the site and rate and comment at the same time most of the time everyone is happy, we only seem to get this when the one star bandit shows up.
I think we did a poll last time > Poll (http://www.joedios.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1553&highlight=ratings) *am I right?* correct me if I'm wrong, when this was raised. If I see something I think can be improved and i've rated it, i'll comment for sure and especially if its justifiable. The bottom line is like sonneilon stated recently
"some shots are of poor standard, they are out of focus and the posing is awful" if the contributor gets 26 views, no comments and a 1* it should be pretty obvious to him without 15 members leaving comments telling him whats wrong.

So has Hammerfel already stated, the ratings system can stay in place or it can be removed, we only have to tell him that it should be removed.. but if its going to stay you all need to adapt and just realise there are people out there with a 'sad life' and that no matter how many times they think they are going to ruin our contributions.. it wont matter... because we are stronger.

Most of the veterans have posted on this thread, as I expected, its always a touchy subject because of the topic and because i think last time we voted a good proportion decided to keep it whilst a handful wanted it gone.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
edited to include the link above. 01:11

Beast from the east

06-13-2009, 06:01 PM

Hey Rich,
That poll was almost 2 yrs ago.There has been a lot more members since then and maybe a new poll should be given,

On that subject there has been alot of poor rating on my star wars pics that I posted in the past for no reason.My thoughts are that they don't like anything but GI JOE.Crossover weekemds are great to show case your other collections.

I vote to remove the ratings.

Like everyone said words are better to help you improve your pics.I think I have improved quite abit because of them.

thats my 2 cents

Urban Saboteur

06-13-2009, 09:54 PM

[QUOTE=Beast from the east]Hey Rich,
That poll was almost 2 yrs ago.There has been a lot more members since then and maybe a new poll should be given,

On that subject there has been alot of poor rating on my star wars pics that I posted in the past for no reason.My thoughts are that they don't like anything but GI JOE.Crossover weekemds are great to show case your other collections.

I vote to remove the ratings.

Like everyone said words are better to help you improve your pics.I think I have improved quite abit because of them.

thats my 2 cents[/QUOTE]

Well Phil, definately a valid point, I mean I didn't check the date when the last poll was done. I've started a new poll (http://www.joedios.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3525) with the current one staying open until August. I guess we could have a review of this poll after then.

I'm also making a list of some of the veterans here. I will pm those myself individually so that they make sure to cast their view on it before it ends.

Last time the poll was split pretty much 50/50 with the exception of 2 people voting for to keep the ratings. That's 22 members voting.. its hardly a landslide.

Just to put it out there, I'm kind of with you on this, I've only got this community and some help on flickr.com to thank for improving my shots, most of the time my shots weren't half bad, but i always felt i could be inspired more and improve my shots to another step.. Joe dios has helped me take that step.

I'd only want to keep the ratings if they could be imbedded/attached to the comments. So that anyone posting would have to submit their name to the rating. That's not going to happen as far as last time it would cost too much to have it done. It's intergrated somehow with the software. So the viable options are for us to keep the ratings and ignore the idiot... or remove them completely.

I hope this new poll is to everyones satisfaction. its your time to have your say on the matter. :)

Sonneilon

06-14-2009, 02:43 AM

Here's the problem (FEL TAKE NOTICE).

Some ppl have beefs against others.

Some are subjective over objective.

"oh gawd. That guy used an old 80s o-ring! 1-star!"

"what the??? that guy crapped me on the past, 1-star for him!!!"

"I hate Falcon. Hey, here's a shot of Falcon, 1-star!"

Those are the mooks that destroy the rating system.

Urban Saboteur

06-15-2009, 06:46 PM

[QUOTE=Sonneilon]Here's the problem (FEL TAKE NOTICE).

Some ppl have beefs against others. Some are subjective over objective.

"oh gawd. That guy used an old 80s o-ring! 1-star!"

"what the??? that guy crapped me on the past, 1-star for him!!!"

"I hate Falcon. Hey, here's a shot of Falcon, 1-star!"

Those are the mooks that destroy the rating system.[/QUOTE]

I always thought they were nice people.. :p speaking of people that feel crapped on. It should be mentioned that includes former banned members from this site who return anonymously to rate the photos and spoil it for everyone... those people do exist.. and that is why removing the ratings would benefit the entire community.

Please do not worry though. I have already devised a scheme that will mean you can rate pictures as well as comment them. It would require you to comment first though. :cool: