Why do we like the bad guys?

[giTom]

Just posted a rambling discussion on my lastest picture (http://www.joedios.com/dioramas/showimage.php?i=27368&c=7) about the Cobra Resolute troopers. :)

Many of my recent pics have featured Cobra forces. Why? :confused: What's the deal?

I guess there is just a fascination with the "society" of the Cobra Organization.

We all have our own twisted Joe-verses rolling around in our heads.

What are your thoughts? Why do you like the bad guys?

[pbarny1701]

Quite simple for me, most of my Joes are in deep storage. The handful I do have available are stored in a bucket which are cobra army builders for the most part and some of the very last customs I did before the baby was born in December.

Also, for single solitary shots, I prefer Cobra to Joes. There probably is a team vs lone wolf paradigm burried in there, but I'm not even sure as to why I like it that way.

If it'll make you feel better, I'll find every Joe who is in that bucket and take a picture or two with them ;)

[Otto the Otter]

Several years ago I read an article about why Darth Vader is such a beloved character and why he is one of the most popular characters ever invented, despite the fact that he is so evil.
It has something to do with the way the bad guys are portrayed in the movies, and I think this can cover the Joe-verse as well. The bad guys are characters, you get to know them. Heck, all six SW movies are about Darth Vader, so you get to see him go from annoying child to even more annoying young adult to bigggest bad ass in the galaxy. You develop a bit of sympathy and empathy for him. You can identify with him.
While you don't quite get to see CC or Destro's entire lives, you get to know them as a person, not just bad guys.
I just watched the movie "Taken." (For those of you who haven't seen, see it, very awesome) I could care less about those bad guys because all they were was bad guys. The story didn't follow them at all, just their brief scenes before Liam Neeson killed them.
Now one could argue that the bad guys in Taken aren't likable because they kidnapped Liam Neeson's daughter and tried to sell her into sex slavery, OK, that's a very scum bag thing to do, but Darth Vader BLEW UP AN ENTIRE PLANET! He Force choked several guys just for mistakes. But why do we like him and not the bad guys from Taken?
Because the story makes us care about him.
Another part of this article had to do with the fact that you look at groups of bad guys, ie Storm Troopers, Cobra Troopers, even Hell's Angels and cowboys from the old west.
Nobody messes with those guys.
Strom Troopers maybe lousey shots and have some pointless armour, but you don't really see people walking up to them and talkiing smack. Cobra Troopers are the same.
Most people don't really aspire to be criminals or bad guys, but most people want to go through life just doing their thing with nobody messing with them. They look at these guys and see that nobody messes with them and develope a bit of an idea in their head that these guys are simply just too bad ass to mess with. People want to be bad ass.
Granted plenty of folks look to, for example, the military in the same way. People usually don't brag about bing a soldier or air man or sailor, but they will tell people that they are a Ranger or SEAL or Marine: the elite, better trained guys. Just so they can try to convince others that they are too bad ass to messed with.
People will also look at groups like the Hell's Angels and outlaw cowboys as people who are out there living their lives like they want to, doing what they want to do and not conforming to the norm. Lots of people want that and have that bit of admiration for those who can do it. They may not like the criminal part of the Hell's Angels, but otherwise the life style may appeal to them.
There's also the psycological dynamic that people love. How did this innocent slave boy go from being annoying but good to being a heartless jerk who is willing to force his own kid to become evil?
How did this car saleman go from a good life to becoming a tyranical leader of a world wide terrorist organization?
I may be talking out my ass and didn't make a lot of sense, but that's my two pennies on this.

[Otto the Otter]

Personally, I don't favor one over the other in the Joe-verse. I like the fact that Joes are the best of the best in the military and have a uniquness to each character, but at the same time I like to take a picture of a group of Vipers or Troopers that all look the same as they march through the braush on a patrol.

[ToneGunsRevisited]

The bad guys let you free "to do" things that usually aren't seen as normal. You can kill, torture and such things. But I'm always with the good guys.

[Death_at_Midnight]

For me, it's all about the imagination. The GI Joe universe is about balance--a yin/yang kinda thing, and I don't mean about ninja's. There's the Joe side which represents law and order, and government, and government process.. and a lot of bureaucracy. There's generals above Hawk, politicians, the Jugglers, and others, and those politicians pulling the strings of .... you get the idea. Once you get into the Joe system it's a matter of time before you start going up the chain of command and then realize there's the dark side of government. There's the process .. the pencil pushers, the paper work, and those loveable, caring politicians who care all the world for the Joe team and would never dream of disbanning it.

So comes Cobra, the opposite of much of that. It's a dictatorship, started in a little town called Springfield where mom and pop might enjoy sitting outdoors watching the sunset on rocking chairs. Cobra where things get done via the power of authority. Cobra Commander speaks, and it is done. It's the ultimate power trip! Then comes along the cool vehicles, the cool gear, nameless troopers, faceless troopers.. it could be anyone in those uniforms. Anyone in those Vipers. No real explaination needed to explain the funding for anything, or where those cool vehicles come from.. or why.. they exist, because Cobra Commander wanted them, needed them. Cobra Commander, for the most part, trumps bureaucracy.

There is also the taboo factor. Cobra is bad, pure and simple. We are not supposed to like bad. Especially if we are good ppl. But it's like telling a child not to take a cookie from the cookie jar. In most tests, a child will leave the cookie alone in the jar, but once someone says not to touch the cookies, suddenly there's this drive in the child to break the rule and steal a cookie. It is taboo and yet because it is taboo there is an attracting force.

Ultimately it's probably an issue of human survival. The taboo factor plays a role in all aspects of life. It helps differentiate society, adds diversity in our genes, our culture, lifestyle, and tastes.

And if you think about this more, it all just comes right back to where we started -- Cobra is liked because it's full of bad a$$'s who kick butt. They are nameless and many, and break all the rules of normal.

If you are "playing" Cobra, setting up a story, setting up a shot, the sky is the limit of what you can do as the person in control. For a brief instant of time, you become Cobra Commander as you set up your forces. You call the shots, you are the dictator that all these hundreds of faceless bad a$$'s will follow to hell and back. For that moment, you are the one in full control as you see fit. Contrast that with the Joes--some freedom, but are confined to a fix set of rules and personalities and structure. Not so with Cobra.

[Agent Viper]

Well I've always loved the darker, meaner characters then the lighter do gooders.

Thats why I am trying to incorporate the joes into a much meaner, cooler fighting force.

[Otto the Otter]

[QUOTE=Death_at_Midnight]
If you are "playing" Cobra, setting up a story, setting up a shot, the sky is the limit of what you can do as the person in control. For a brief instant of time, you become Cobra Commander as you set up your forces. You call the shots, you are the dictator that all these hundreds of faceless bad a$$'s will follow to hell and back. For that moment, you are the one in full control as you see fit. Contrast that with the Joes--some freedom, but are confined to a fix set of rules and personalities and structure. Not so with Cobra.[/QUOTE]

With this mentality in mind, how rediculous would have been for G.I.*JOE to have a brainwave scanner? But it's ok with Cobra.
What about a guy who can camouflage himself like a chameleon, a guy who dresses like a bird, a special army made up of nothing but lawyers and accountants? All that would have seemed silly if they were Joes, yet they seem to work as Cobras.
Look at the Cobra vehicles vs the Joe vehicles. At first They were both fairly conventional and could be real, but while the Joes for the most part maintained a conservative and real design to most of their vehicles, Cobra's lot tend to be boarderline Sci-Fi and just plain out of this world at times. Although that has nothing to do with good or evil, it's the idea of being not only able to "think outside the box" but to just throw the box out the window and start with a clean slate.

[zedhatch]

Funny i was reading somethng on another board about bad guys in general which pointed out that if the good guys are just dullards then someone is doing the good guys wrong. Pulling that into an example: Iron man when stark points out with all his character defects he couldn't be a superhero.

In relation to Vader, one thing that made him compelling to me was the fact that at the end of empire he told luke he was his father. I hated him cause I thought he was lying, and yet by the end of jedi he was dying and I felt ultmate sympathy for him, just an old man in a suit not the monster we envisioned. But he was the first (and argueably only) character to make me feel that kind of range of emotion.

In relation to GI Joe, basicly the snakes are much more colorfull characters, that is no ones fault besides the way they are designed. Destro with a metal mask is ten times as fun as someone with a berret for instance.

[ender098]

I think the idea of the bad guys having less limitations is rignt on th money, the other part is how they treat each other and how they act. If Stalker didn't agree with something Hawk wanted, he'd just wait until his enlistment was up and get out of the military. If Major Bludd doesn't get along with Zartan, he'll stap a car bomb onto his swamp skieer!

The bad guys dynamic is they are thrown together for a common cause (World Domination) but they cut each others throats to achieve that....their evil, backstabbing personalities make them more interesting!

[Roland da Thompson Gunner]

[QUOTE=Otto the Otter]Several years ago I read an article about why Darth Vader is such a beloved character and why he is one of the most popular characters ever invented, despite the fact that he is so evil.
It has something to do with the way the bad guys are portrayed in the movies, and I think this can cover the Joe-verse as well. The bad guys are characters, you get to know them. Heck, all six SW movies are about Darth Vader, so you get to see him go from annoying child to even more annoying young adult to bigggest bad ass in the galaxy. You develop a bit of sympathy and empathy for him. You can identify with him.
While you don't quite get to see CC or Destro's entire lives, you get to know them as a person, not just bad guys.
I just watched the movie "Taken." (For those of you who haven't seen, see it, very awesome) I could care less about those bad guys because all they were was bad guys. The story didn't follow them at all, just their brief scenes before Liam Neeson killed them.
Now one could argue that the bad guys in Taken aren't likable because they kidnapped Liam Neeson's daughter and tried to sell her into sex slavery, OK, that's a very scum bag thing to do, but Darth Vader BLEW UP AN ENTIRE PLANET! He Force choked several guys just for mistakes. But why do we like him and not the bad guys from Taken?
Because the story makes us care about him.
Another part of this article had to do with the fact that you look at groups of bad guys, ie Storm Troopers, Cobra Troopers, even Hell's Angels and cowboys from the old west.
Nobody messes with those guys.
Strom Troopers maybe lousey shots and have some pointless armour, but you don't really see people walking up to them and talkiing smack. Cobra Troopers are the same.
Most people don't really aspire to be criminals or bad guys, but most people want to go through life just doing their thing with nobody messing with them. They look at these guys and see that nobody messes with them and develope a bit of an idea in their head that these guys are simply just too bad ass to mess with. People want to be bad ass.
Granted plenty of folks look to, for example, the military in the same way. People usually don't brag about bing a soldier or air man or sailor, but they will tell people that they are a Ranger or SEAL or Marine: the elite, better trained guys. Just so they can try to convince others that they are too bad ass to messed with.
People will also look at groups like the Hell's Angels and outlaw cowboys as people who are out there living their lives like they want to, doing what they want to do and not conforming to the norm. Lots of people want that and have that bit of admiration for those who can do it. They may not like the criminal part of the Hell's Angels, but otherwise the life style may appeal to them.
There's also the psycological dynamic that people love. How did this innocent slave boy go from being annoying but good to being a heartless jerk who is willing to force his own kid to become evil?
How did this car saleman go from a good life to becoming a tyranical leader of a world wide terrorist organization?
I may be talking out my ass and didn't make a lot of sense, but that's my two pennies on this.[/QUOTE]


Paragraphs help

[yorktownjoe]

[QUOTE=ender098]
The bad guys dynamic is they are thrown together for a common cause (World Domination) but they cut each others throats to achieve that....their evil, backstabbing personalities make them more interesting![/QUOTE]

Right you are Frank. There would be no "Joe Civil War." But the idea of ego-manicial mad-men having a schism, yeah, that could happen. It is plausible.

I agree with Otter's point as well. Cobra gives you more freedom to go out there with your ideas. But I do like the Joes more. I asked my sons, as they seem to favor Cobra oftentimes as well. Their reply: "Dad, they are just so cool!"

There would be no need for an elite force of Joes if there wasn't an uber-evil group like Cobra rolling around. If there was no Cobra, regular forces could handle most contingencies. So I like the idea of Cobra because it results in a "need" for a force like the Joes. And having to BE better PUSHES them to be better.

[Flatline]

because Chicks Dig Them!

[Death_at_Midnight]

[QUOTE=Flatline]because Chicks Dig Them![/QUOTE]

That's true! They get all the good babes.

[Otto the Otter]

[QUOTE=Roland da Thompson Gunner]Paragraphs help[/QUOTE]
:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[rds13601]

The world is not a fair place anymore. Rules are somewhat antiquated. I get mad and laugh at people like Amnesty International or the Geneva convention. Everyone was up in arms over waterboarding. Yet what happened to American POWs. They were killed and their bodies mutilated. Cobra Commander is a person that is believable. A car salesman who created an army. The Joes were baddies selected as a team. Snake Eyes can be bad while being good. What he did after Scarlett was shot in the head to the Extensive Enterprises building was go on a rampage. All people have a badness inside them. Some overtly show it like CC and Snake Eyes has it covertly but can turn it on when he has to. It is a matter of perception. Some good guys like Stalker, Storm Shadow can be badder than Cobra when they turn on that emotion. That's what make the Joe universe somewhat real and cool to watch.

[seyms]

I think that GI Joe represents conformity, conservatism (booo) and orthodoxy. So does Cobra in many ways. It's just that the act of breaking free is an attractive one. That is also what Cobra represents and is also one of many reasons to like them. Too bad that there isn't much dissent among the Joe ranks. A story about an internal Joe war would be a great idea! Dissent among the ranks, GI Joe pursuing an unjust war. Conscientious Joe soldiers questioning their military superiors' authority and the political leadership that sets policy. The notions of good and evil constantly challenged. And NONE of it caused by Cobra intervention. Would make great storytelling.

[Dreadnok Dread]

[QUOTE=rds13601]The world is not a fair place anymore. Rules are somewhat antiquated. I get mad and laugh at people like Amnesty International or the Geneva convention. Everyone was up in arms over waterboarding. Yet what happened to American POWs. They were killed and their bodies mutilated. Cobra Commander is a person that is believable. A car salesman who created an army. The Joes were baddies selected as a team. Snake Eyes can be bad while being good. What he did after Scarlett was shot in the head to the Extensive Enterprises building was go on a rampage. All people have a badness inside them. Some overtly show it like CC and Snake Eyes has it covertly but can turn it on when he has to. It is a matter of perception. Some good guys like Stalker, Storm Shadow can be badder than Cobra when they turn on that emotion. That's what make the Joe universe somewhat real and cool to watch.[/QUOTE]






This one has a strong force within him! come to the dark side!

[sithviper]

[QUOTE=Dreadnok Dread]come to the dark side![/QUOTE]

We have cookies :D

[snakeling]

I know I'm kind of repeating whats already been said but the bad guys rule because they get to do what we all want to do but don't. I think most of us are good people but at some point we want to do what Cobra/Vader (insert villian) does. Its in all of us.

[Sonneilon]

"Because good is dumb" -Lord Helmet.

[savage21]

I agree

[QUOTE=Death_at_Midnight]For me, it's all about the imagination. The GI Joe universe is about balance--a yin/yang kinda thing, and I don't mean about ninja's. There's the Joe side which represents law and order, and government, and government process.. and a lot of bureaucracy. There's generals above Hawk, politicians, the Jugglers, and others, and those politicians pulling the strings of .... you get the idea. Once you get into the Joe system it's a matter of time before you start going up the chain of command and then realize there's the dark side of government. There's the process .. the pencil pushers, the paper work, and those loveable, caring politicians who care all the world for the Joe team and would never dream of disbanning it.

So comes Cobra, the opposite of much of that. It's a dictatorship, started in a little town called Springfield where mom and pop might enjoy sitting outdoors watching the sunset on rocking chairs. Cobra where things get done via the power of authority. Cobra Commander speaks, and it is done. It's the ultimate power trip! Then comes along the cool vehicles, the cool gear, nameless troopers, faceless troopers.. it could be anyone in those uniforms. Anyone in those Vipers. No real explaination needed to explain the funding for anything, or where those cool vehicles come from.. or why.. they exist, because Cobra Commander wanted them, needed them. Cobra Commander, for the most part, trumps bureaucracy.

There is also the taboo factor. Cobra is bad, pure and simple. We are not supposed to like bad. Especially if we are good ppl. But it's like telling a child not to take a cookie from the cookie jar. In most tests, a child will leave the cookie alone in the jar, but once someone says not to touch the cookies, suddenly there's this drive in the child to break the rule and steal a cookie. It is taboo and yet because it is taboo there is an attracting force.

Ultimately it's probably an issue of human survival. The taboo factor plays a role in all aspects of life. It helps differentiate society, adds diversity in our genes, our culture, lifestyle, and tastes.

And if you think about this more, it all just comes right back to where we started -- Cobra is liked because it's full of bad a$$'s who kick butt. They are nameless and many, and break all the rules of normal.

If you are "playing" Cobra, setting up a story, setting up a shot, the sky is the limit of what you can do as the person in control. For a brief instant of time, you become Cobra Commander as you set up your forces. You call the shots, you are the dictator that all these hundreds of faceless bad a$$'s will follow to hell and back. For that moment, you are the one in full control as you see fit. Contrast that with the Joes--some freedom, but are confined to a fix set of rules and personalities and structure. Not so with Cobra.[/QUOTE]